Right, on to my next guest. This is the diagnosis that changed the story. It's Mark Phillips, the neurodivergent footballer. He's played nearly 400 games of senior football across seven of England's top eight divisions. Mark Phillips joined his boyhood club at Millwall at 13, made his first team debut in 2001. He won the league two title with Brentford. He was Southend United's player of the year and has had around two decades in the professional game. And for most of that time, he saw his career as a failure. And then after 43, after his son's diagnosis, Mark was diagnosed with ADHD. And since then, he's founded the neurodivergent footballer to help players and people far beyond football understand how their brains work.

His story has been on Sky Sports. It's been on the BBC, on talk sport, and in the Observer. And we are very, very, very proud that he has opted to become an ADHD UK ambassador. Now before I bring him in, we're gonna play a quick clip of him in his own words.

The honest truth is I've always felt different in some sort of way. Could never put your finger on it, but you just know there's something, there's something different. The way you think, the speed of thoughts, the the kind of constantly all for me, was very active, always needed to be on the go, could never rest. The word rest was non existent to me. Again, just thought that was, everyone was like that and that was normal. So that's really what difference I noticed and it kind of also emotionally, I've always felt very emotional. I remember crying as a young kid at the pantomime, for example, which I.

Just feel of as people's kind of sadness and very empathic, I now know what this is. But growing up as a young man in a quite tough Southeast London area, it wasn't particularly a skill or strength that was what you leaned on because you had to kind of, you have a survival kind of area. And that then went on to football as well, where it's quite an aggressive competitive sport, particularly in professional game. So it was something that I had to hide, which I now realized that over a long period, I've used different kind of masking techniques and behaviors to kind of feel, get away from that differentness that I feel inside, even if people can't see on the outside. Did it very, very well.

And that means welcome, Mark. Hi, Henry. How are you doing? I am doing great. Thank you. And very, very pleased to... Well, thank you very much for being here. Thank you being an ADHD ambassador. Thank you, ADHD UK ambassador. Thank you for all the work you're doing at... As the neurodiversity footballer neurodivergent footballer. You saw the clip. And this is a fireside chat style. I I can tell you, I genuinely thought about a far a far background. I thought maybe for me that was pushing it too too far. We're gonna talk about... A little bit about your your childhood. Like, in that clip, you talked about crying at the pantomime as a boy and learning to hide it. Growing up in Southeast London, then in the football dressing room.

Where did all that feeling go?

Yeah. It's a really good question because it's only now that I'm kinda deciphering them kind of things. When I was when I was a young a young boy, the pantomime kind of films and things like that, I'd I'd really feel things. And and I kinda like... Would, you know, like, sister or whoever it was would, like, kind of have a little smirk at you and laugh, and you'd you'd know you'd know inside there wasn't wasn't very cool. And as as a young guy, you you really felt that you had to portray a certain image, especially kind of where I was growing up, particularly particularly kind of in the South London areas that you talked about was a sporting background. Everyone was quite competitive.

Everyone was quite cool, like what they had to wear, what they had to dress, how you'd portray yourself. So I kind of had learned through trial and error and and a lot of hurt, really. I've been taking the Mickey out and that, obviously, not being nice and probably feeling that more than most. But, again, just thought everyone was the same. You took the Mickey. So I think you don't you don't really know where the emotion you have to suppress it. I I now know you have to kinda not show it, but it does hurt, and then it does come out at some point. And I think that's where as I got older, you're kind of you're kind of masking and and survival techniques and mechanisms start failing, and there's no way you can get around it anymore.

And that's when... What led me kind of towards the diagnosis is when things happen in life, challenges happen in life. In football, particularly, it's it's quite a challenging world. You have to constantly be evolving and learning and and improving, and you're judged every second every every day. So you you really become skilled at at at learning to to play certain characters and certain roles to to to kind of fit in. It's about fitting in really then. They... In whatever environment you're in.

And I kinda look back at that and think it's a little bit sad that it's now only kind of 43, 44 that I'm actually owning who I am and my difference is actually... My differences have made a huge impact actually on on the the brilliant things I've done in my life. And in the video, I said about the the failure kind of feeling my career was a failure, which for me was a really great thing that I was a perfectionist, that it allowed and fueled me to wanna be as good as I could be in every moment. But equally, there's also a negative side of that with the neurodiversity. You can't differentiate as well, I found personally, between.

The positives of that. But, actually, there's no such thing as perfection and that it was only once I then was speaking openly in the last year with a colleague who made the Premier League and made... Made his... He's he's in... Kinda played for his country as well. And, actually, he was suffering with the same things, and I'm thinking, wow. If if he was thinking the same things, he made them pinnacles that I was aiming for. Actually, there's no ceiling to this, and there would have always been someone evolving, which if you're aware of neurodiversity, like the brilliant doctor just talked about, you can manage and control them, but things. But at the time, it caused me a lot of pain, a lot a lot of kind... Love her.

So I had to suppress that and and not show, and maybe then it comes out your behavior, I think, is probably the best way of saying it. When I was back home away from them environments, I'd be quite quiet, quite moody. I used to always joke and call myself almost like a Kevin and Perry teenager at home, but for for a number of years, not not just the teenage years. You know? But that behavior in terms of isolating myself, needing peace, needing quiet, which again, I learned about the environmental stresses and sensory side of things as well. So it's it's crazy how it all... Your whole life just ties into this this this whole spectrum of neurodiversity now.

And you said you were fueled by fear and that you never needed a manager to criticize you because you'd already already done it 10 times harder. What was what was the sort of voice in your head like? Like, what was that like?

It was pretty tough, and I suppose the ADHD and the dopamine kind of side of things. So I was a center back. So, traditionally, center backs are quite like defender in terms of you're quite robust. You're quite physical. They're the kind of attributes. But, actually, I love football. I could play the game of football and pass and move and up, and so I could play multiple positions throughout my career. So for me, that kind of... A good game was only perfection if I hadn't even made, like... For me, a mistake was when I passed my right back, for example, and I didn't put it an inch in perfect to to break his stride. So the details... That's why I think ADHD and maybe my autistic traits as well that.

Actually is such a huge strength because I was always looking for perfection. I'm a football purist, so I love the game. So when... Speaking on on on your your comment that actually there was lots of games where I played pretty well. To be a professional, you need to be consistent across every single game, like a kinda like a seven half, eight out of 10. That's what was spoke about in the game. But, actually, I... For my personal satisfaction and my aim, I wanted to be team the week every week. I want you to be man of the match, which is is quite hard coming from center back. Usually, strikers attacking players get it. So it it was quite tough because I was judging myself on probably unrealistic margins.

So, yeah, games games could could be very tough when I come off the pitch, and I'd always be ruminating on my on my... What I could have done better, which became really positive because the feedback of myself was constant. Actually, equally, with that knowledge of maybe the unknown neurodiversity, I could have made a balance and actually look. You didn't mean to be exactly how I coach my players nowadays. You don't mean to make make mistakes. We're all human. We make mistakes. No one intends to. What can we learn from this? What can we take positives? Let's go... Let go of the negatives because we can't change that now. It's done. But... That's that's... And.

That segue is quite nice because you think you you have nearly 400 games as a professional player, a league title, player of the year, and yet before your diagnosis, you you you know, you you saw your own career as a failure. When you look back now, what do you see?

Yeah. The diagnosis has been huge. It's it's it's it's really allowed me to accept myself, accept my differences, and see actually how the differences with my ADHD has actually probably got me to where I got with the 400 games and so much success in that game. It's allowed me to step back away from that kind of, like, my nervous system being constantly active in a in a pretty much in a train negative kind of way to see danger everywhere, to actually just sit back and relax. Do you know what, Mark? You you you... Less than one percent of the the population, you know, to to to be able to do that job. So that's a huge achievement in itself, and you manage to stay in it with the the injuries I had.

Throughout my career for so long and then then achieve them things on top. So I can really kinda sit back and... I think there's a side of... I don't know if you... Certain humans and and maybe neurodiversity is a part of that, but we like to we like to put ourselves down or we like to make ourselves smaller than what we are. So in in a fear for me, it was a fear of being seen as arrogant or or or big time is the word that's used in football. You know? Where actually.

The opposite with other people, I encourage them to be confident. I encourage them because because arrogance is is is the last thing that... The word I described by myself. So it's really allowed me to be a sense of pride. You know? I have a sense of pride looking back on it and actually say, Mark, you've done you've done really well. You had a lot of challenges physically on your body, you still managed to keep on going to the age of 37. So, rule, I look back in pride and happy memories now from a much more peaceful, relaxed state of mind that is quite a nice place to be now because it does split into the rest of your life and then gives you confidence in how you walk around.

I think that is... Oh, that's like like, I think the thing... After what you've talked about around how you felt, to then say, it's actually a nice place to be now. That's been... That's absolutely joyful. That's one of... Like, that's a thing we all aspire to. And congrats on all the work you've done to get yourself there. You talked about football giving you structure, exercise, and a team every day. And then it stopped. And then you talked about living on coffee and being lost for a while. What was that like?

Yeah. That that that... Obviously, in in in the kind of neurodiverse world, medication is a is a big topic. And the doctor previously mentioned so many great things. And and when I got diagnosed, it was it was so apparent, everything. It was... Like, everything made sense. Football was my structure. It was my my routine. It was my physical release. So the the the football for me, but, I mean, in terms of the sport or or whatever is your passion, it brought... It was my medication. It was what fitted perfectly into my life, and and that's why I really believe I I obviously didn't... Wasn't aware of it for so long. Obviously, the the understanding wasn't there, but, equally, that that that was so good. So when I stopped football.

It kind of... I meant my medication was... My natural medication was kind of gone, and I didn't quite... Even though I made preparations financially and job wise, I ran a football academy, which was going really strongly then, so I could... It was almost like as seamless as it could be. But then that's when the kind of, I suppose, cracks start coming in in in terms of my my routine, my organizational skills of of being able to keep a structure in my life and and and actually the challenge of actually that I I really value a need structure, but equally, I feel trapped and quite.

Claustrophobic when I do and tied to something. So I'm kind of got to push and pull constantly with me. And at them times, I I wasn't aware of that, so I kinda drifted into... Yeah. Yeah. Just almost doing a bit of fitness to keep up that side of the work. I'm used to going to football every morning. So my routine was that. So the gym took over and things like that. Then equally, some other activities like socializing in pubs more, maybe doing things that weren't as as as positive in my life that that were trying to fill the gaps, not almost like searching searching for what was next. What actually brought me that joy because I'm fully aware that football is really...

I I was full... Even though I worked really, really hard, and you have to work hard to be at football, it's a very gifted job that that... There's them highs of that that kind of the the joking in a change room, the training every day, the the phone... The hyperfocus. It was all such great things that probably can't be relived in in in kind of my my my new life after football. So it was a real difficult period of of of being lost and really been unsure what my, I suppose, what my purpose was, what what I was gonna do next, what would bring me joy because I didn't wanna go into something that that wasn't gonna bring me the level of joy that I'd had for so many years. I wanted to do something I'm passionate about, something I I love.

And it took a few years, and then my journey's been now to where it is now. And, obviously, the neurodiversity unraveled from there over the period of the last six years, I'd say.

Well, thank you for for for sharing that. Yeah, it's...

And I think you've talked about how tough that period was with your father passing away. Yeah. There's a few... Yeah. As I say, there's a few things happened kind of after football. Yeah. My my father passed away very very quickly for most neuro disease. I had a had a divorce, which was through the COVID kind of time as well, which took a lot longer, and it was really, really horrific. So, yeah, I got I got... Actually got to the point where I probably had a breakdown around that period where I just didn't have any answers anymore. I didn't... I I I was sitting there just... I've got no angles. I've got no way. If I'm quite positive person.

On the outside, I'll always try to... I'll survive somehow whatever's going on. And that's what football is brilliant as well. We we all have tough times in life, but football is almost like you go to football and forget about your problems. So where I didn't have that, things kinda came crashing down, and I didn't actually have any have any solutions anymore. And that's when I kinda went into therapy for a bit... For a brilliant organization called Sporting Chance, which helped. They really helped. I had one counselor.

And then then it... Funny enough, I actually felt for me that talking about was brilliant because I was in such a bad place. But, equally, I didn't like talking about it. I realized after some period, wasn't seeing no longer term change. It was almost talking about it. It's making me think about this more. And now I'm opened up to a world of emotions that I'm... I was quite happy not knowing they they didn't exist in in my kind of match show football mark. But, yeah, my coping survival systems weren't helping anymore.

I then moved on to kind of... I researched about CBT, which is what a lot of your guests are talking about as well. So I naturally kind of found my way slowly because I was fed up of talking too much about it because then that would make my thoughts go even more and think about it constantly. So then CBT was, I feel I need something a bit more permanent here. And then so I went into CBT, and I researched kind of e e... EMDR, which was mentioned there as well, did a a bit of that. And then that's when it kind of... Like, I was getting really, really close to the diagnosis and and actually getting the social media comments come... Coming up on my on my social media. And and that's.

When I was like, you know, I was quite proud of myself looking back because I was like, you know what? You were heading in the right right direction the whole time. You you you just didn't have that icing on the cake answer, which obviously was the diagnosis and why that's so important to so many people, including myself.

No. Thank you for sharing that about you. And I often... Talking about getting to to a breakdown and and often one of the real challenges is sometimes people... And we've said a lot with people with ADHD, they've up this extraordinary resilience. But it means that they push so hard and keep going so long and pass the line where they're in trouble.

Yeah. Was I was starting now, and I was living in burnout daily. Daily. And you mentioned coffee before, and that was that was what I'd be having to kind of my... Around about two, 3PM, my eyes would start watering. Yeah. The the the kind of, obviously, internal kind of sensations, and my I was just... And I I would... From the divorce, I had to earn money, and I was kind of, like, just chasing up just nonstop. So my... Almost my constant thoughts and constant needs to do things and the need for financial stability in my life for my children was all driving together, and I was, yeah, daily living now with burnout. Daily living. And so it would take it would take kind of barely anything to tip me over the edge and leave my my my.

Kind of temper go or I... That was quite snappy. You know, like, pair of your mom or or whoever it may be, and then you'd be filled with guilt because the way you act for dogs, they don't deserve that you shouldn't treat us. So that was a constant cycle for at least at least kind of four, five years. You know? And and funny enough with the coffee kind of thing, I loved the coffee. It wasn't even the coffee I enjoyed. It was the...

It was almost like... Once I had a coffee, I I I then would calm down. I'd calm my... It would never give me energy. It would always just calm me. And so that was really interesting throughout my diagnosis where the the the lovely lady said that you can have as many coffees as you want, Mark, and and they they they will not give you that energy, that caffeine fix kind of thing. And for me, it just chilled me out, just calmed me, almost eased my mind. So me, my coffee was a whole experience. I'd have to go and sit there in a place and just calm, and that was almost like my peace. And so that was a game for me self medicating through coffee, which which which which was... Is is is so obvious now looking back at it. You know? Now... But but.

Something I wouldn't have known whatsoever back then.

And it's something we see a lot of... Yeah. Well, self medicating with caffeine is not not uncommon. Your dad took you to the den, and you still have a photo of him when you signed your schoolboy forms. Like, you've talked about how tough it is. Like, and you've talked about how you're in a nice place now. Like, what would you want him to know about your story? How your story's turned out?

It's funny because... So so my dad died really quickly, and, obviously, he he meant the world to me. He was always there for you. Like, probably a lot of our dads are. You know? So as... Even as a man, we look towards our dads for support in tough times. And when when he died... So he told one of our good friends when he died that he he said he worried about me the most out of out of my siblings. You know? So even even when I was growing up and stuff, he noticed these traits in me, you know, even though I was the confident, successful one. Yeah. As a parent, he knew I was the warrior. I was the overthinker. And and he he he always had my back, and and he wanted to obviously other people who were senior to me, uncles, for example.

To have my back when he was gone. So, yeah, I think I think he'd get get quite emotional, but, yeah, he'd be he'd be very... I think he'd be very, very proud.

And we've got a clip of you talking about your diagnosis. Mhmm. But I can't... I think I think that's a great place to be. Right? You're in a nice place and feeling that pride. Right, diagnosis.

It was so powerful. It was probably one of the most kind of life changing important moments of my life, it was that powerful. And I'd have to try to keep the emotions in when I talk about it because it was so emotional, there was countless times where she was giving me confirmation that I wasn't broken, that you're good enough, like the amount of things you've achieved. And even down to that, I had an answer now, there was an answer for everything. And we joke about this privately between us that our best saying is it all makes sense now. And it was so powerful to change. And I've been like this from birth, it's not something that is wrong with me. This is how my mind works, this is who I.

The... You've said you still have to hold the emotions in when you talk about that day. It was such a big deal. Take take us take us into the room. Like, what was it like? Like?

Yeah. It's it's... Well, even leading up to it. You know? So so, obviously, we talked about my son kind of how how I kind of be... Became aware of of talking about it in the house and then literally the phone listens to you. So next thing you know on Instagram, you're getting posted all these kind of posts about what ADHD is really, like the the... How it kind of represents in adults. And they were like, okay. This one's kind of... I really don't... I get that. That's kinda me. Then the next day, another one and another one another one. And this this was like, do you know what? This is this is this is this is making too too much sense. And so fast forwarding on to the kind of... I was... Fortunate enough for me, I I had the funds to.

To pay for a private diagnosis. And, obviously, classic kind of for me, ADHD style, wanted it now. I I I didn't I didn't wanna wait for this. This this was.

No. It's like we see so often. People aren't going for an ADHD diagnosis because they're worried well. They're going because they're they're struggling. They're in trouble. They've realized something that actually resonates and they think, well, it can make very big difference. And, like, yeah. Of course you want to do it now. Like... Or... Yeah. So I think it's partly the trait... Traits are there too, but, like, there's a clear need, and that creates that urgency.

A 100%. A 100%. Because this actually so I'm really thankful you just said that because that gave me the hope. That gave me the biggest hope that actually I still talked about that I wasn't broken. But, actually, there was times, if I'm being honest, that I thought I have... I I had kind of mental illnesses with with the way my my mind was constant. It was negative. It was... Didn't make sense. Caused a lot of kind of conflicting kind of issues. I was living in a way that knew wasn't... Well, how I wanted to. So, actually, it was huge even just getting this information on Instagram because I was like... It gave me that hope. And I went into that die... That that kind of assessment.

Even though I don't like the word assessment as such because for for me, it was it was... They was they were so skilled at what they did. I didn't need to be worried. That's the way they asked the questions. The questions were within a conversation. You know? Like, it was very... And it's all very understanding and and and and almost, like, explanatory. And and and so when I went in there, they was... And I've spoke to other people who've reached out to me. It's the same thing I've I've ex... They just talk about it really nervous. This... I I pinned a lot on this. It was a huge moment. I I... If I didn't get this kind of answer, it wasn't so much black and white like that, but.

This is what made sense to me, and this could be the answer why I'd been so lost and so flat and so struggling as well as the ups for so long. So when I went in there and the lady was, like, kinda keep... As I'm... We're talking and and I'm being assessed, I'm being given reasons and answers behind things. And and I... Yeah. That's why when when the when the emotions come out, yeah, I'm getting emotional now just thinking about that that day because it was it was like it all made sense, and it was okay. I was I was okay. I wasn't... I I wasn't mentally ill. I I I was... There's an explanation.

There's a reason, and that was so powerful for me for me because I didn't have another way to go, if I'm being honest. So as I went into that assessment, I didn't have another answer. I had... I was so hopeful this was the answer. I deep know down, I knew. I knew this was the answer because I've seen this enough. I'd researched like crazy up here. And and... But there's still that seed in your mind. What if? What if? Yeah. So that... So when she kinda told me, yeah, I I was, yeah, I've never cried so much in my life kind of relief relief, ecstasy.

What what was it the an... You said it's the answer. What was it?

No. In terms of in terms of the... Have got ADHD combined type.

No. No. I mean, by... You said it was the answer, but, like, what was it the answer to in your life?

The the... Yeah. The answer and the reason why I was so confused about things, why I've lived such a contradictory conflicting with thoughts about pull and put... The pull and push of various topics. And and that was the clarity. That was the clarity to to me. Ah, yes. Yes. That's that's why that's why you you you you you want this, but you asked the only opposite way. See, this is why school was so difficult for you, why you you you wanted to achieve so well, but... And why certain things you're interested and certain things you're not. And, actually, that's okay. Where before, it... I'd see it as a problem with myself or or I'm not doing good enough or I'm not enough.

And that was a general theme throughout my whole life, which helped helped gain me success, but also a lot of unhappiness along along the way. You've talked about it. You said you said alongside the relief, you've talked about a feeling of a sense of injustice and grief. Yeah. Yeah. Just... Yeah. And then that... That's probably refer... An obvious one for me is referring back to school, that that that... Actually, I'm a very optimistic person, so I've got so many happy memories of school, so many happy memories of school. And I I I talk about my friends, the sports I did. And so when I then kind of was seeing my reports, and I I was being I was being dis... Kind of talked about, so kind of in all negative terms. And.

And that really made me feel sad for myself that actually you were never that you were never that. But I remember one day it was quite quite harsh, actually. I was on a red report because of of my perceived behavior, and I came off it with flyer marks, I I actually asked to be put back on the rev report because I thought that was the answer to me to me actually doing well at school and being in the way that act the way I should. But, actually, when I look back, actually, there was no behavioral issues with me. There was no... There was there was nothing wrong. It was just this... A young boy struggling with them GCSE years. I couldn't retain the information. I was so hungry and so desperate to achieve because.

I'm 44 now, but in my kind of time, it's like you have to get your your GCSEs to achieve or you're gonna work as this, that, and the other in a negative connotation. So I was so hungry to achieve, and I was so ambitious. The the the revision and the re going over things was just so difficult for me. I I couldn't even remember doing that at the start of year. It was like a foreign language to me. So so I felt really sorry for myself. I felt a lot of injustices, particularly around relationships as well. I felt really in... I I actually was... Part of my kind of learning mind ADHD was through a through a through a breakdown of a relationship, which which.

Was was with a lovely person, a really nice person, brilliant, that they... Looking back now, they perceived me in in certain ways which were not me, and it was obviously due to their their lack of... Well, both our lack of understanding about neurodiversity that caused that miscommunication and that that understanding. But... So I felt real injustice in that that I was treated as a certain way, but that wasn't never my intentions. You know? I was always coming into that relationship with love and purity and honesty and how someone else can see you in a negative way based upon based upon their view of behaviors and not the reality. No? So there was a lot of injustice around school relationships.

Even my football career even my football career, there's still times I remember where I was told I wasn't... I... Almost like my my honesty was used against me because you have to be quite tough in the football game. You have to not show any weakness. So there was a lot of injustice which which hurt, but I've always I've always been quite good at letting go of that because you can't take that on. Otherwise, it's only gonna affect you negatively. So so I try my best to do the, like the doctors have said, the breathing techniques, meditation, find really good.

And you've said that a part of that sense of injustice is what pushed you to start the neurodivergent footballer. And after your diagnosis you searched for footballers who talked about being neurodivergent. You found hardly any men. And so why did you decide that the person you know, to be that change was gonna be you?

Yeah. It's it's it's kind of... But it it was all perfect timing when this all happened. So I I... As I was doing it, I was I was kinda learning more. And the more I was understanding, the more I was kind of various really high high doctors who are very knowledgeable in in this field. And, obviously, it would just hit me straight away. This is black or white. There's so many people within sport which are... Who are neurodivergent. Neurodiverse. And, again, I'm I'm not kind of diagnosing them, but I'm... I mean, in terms of that that red... That I was... Resonate with me, we'd have conversations, very similar things, very similar traits, very similar characteristics.

In life. Obviously, I've known these people for years, so it's not like I'm any different from from a lot of people in the change rooms. So I saw it straight away that actually I can... And I've re... Like you said, I've researched, and then there was probably two male footballers that I I came across. There was a few women because women are much better at embracing differences, and it... Because it's it's it's a newer kind of sport. But I.

Just fall straight away. I've... This is... This was what I meant to do. I was not embarrassed of it. I I I saw all the positives in it, and, actually, I can use my platform to to not only help, like you said, footballers or sports people, but but but the the wider community as well. Because for me, football brings tech. It's called a beautiful game because it brings so many people together, whether you support this, that team, whether you're from this country. Football is my passion, and I and I see how it brings just so many people together. For example, the World Cup. You know? We can all talk. And and I just thought, you know what? This is gonna be the force of good, and and I can use the football platform to actually spread so much...

I don't wanna say what word awareness because, again, it's not a word that I I it's too broad for me. I I went ahead and spelled real understanding, understanding what it is. For all them times that I was misunderstood and and the stereotype that I had, admittedly, of the young hyperactive, like, physical outer outer activity rather than the in... Internal mind, I could use this as a real powerful message. And and and that's when, yeah, like you said, that so many coaches, footballers, professional coaches, managers, bod... Professional bodies within football reached out to me and and was was like, that makes sense. Can I can I talk about that? Can...

Like, can I get help? And I then help refer them on to professionals because I'm not a professional in terms of medical at all. So that was enough for me. You know? That was enough for... If that was gonna be the star of it. But, obviously, with my ambition and my professionalism, it's never gonna stop. I'm just gonna I just wanted to kinda grow and just reach as many people as possible, and I thought football is a really powerful method of doing that.

Well, there absolutely is. It's... And your voice is... And last year, the PFA surveyed about 700 players. The early results was about one in twenty had a diagnosis. About a quarter said they had neurodivergent traits. And sixty percent of those hadn't told their club. You've said as a young player, you'd have hidden ADHD traits the way player high... Players hide injuries. What do you think would make it safe for a player to tell their club?

That... That's what what what I talk about, the brilliant timing. So that that report came out a month after I decided what I was gonna do, and that was my confirmation. This has to be done. What... Really good question. What has to be done? So much has to be done. I I... I've been in contact with numerous professional clubs now. The clubs are brilliant. They've got player care department, which actually kind of is... They are so interested in in this topic, and they know they have neurodivergent players within their academies and first teams. So I always talk about, like, just the understanding. Me as a coach.

How how do you deliver? How do you deliver? We... We're we're we're all different. We're all diverse in some sorts of way. You know? The learning styles are already known, but neurodiverse can be so different spectrums in terms of... Just because I've got ADHD and you've got ADHD, we don't learn the same way. So it's it's it's the multiple ways you can get their messages across your players. And I really think the modern game is going going in the right direction because it's always seeking to become better, and that's that's... That that player support is is is.

Is there and is coming at the highest level. It's more about what can we do as we trickle down into the grassroots where there are kids struggling, there are young men and women struggling. How can we empower these volunteers and and and and kind of father mother coaches who are who are looking after these clubs? Because I come across them every day in my academy, and and and I try my best. Even me being neurodiverse myself, I understand what a challenge it is. So it's it's all about kinda how we empower them, how we... And and and your your doctor before said said that he was amazing. He he he said a lot of techniques that that I personally use and and we personally recommend as well.

Funny enough, a good example, not not about neurodiversity, but but you see Ronaldo before he takes a free kick or he takes a penalty. He'll stand there, huge shrug of the shoulders, deep breath in and a powerful blowout so he can settle himself in that moment and and and take on what could be one of the most important kicks he takes of his life. You know? So it's it's it's... For for me, that's one technique very similar to to what we're trying to teach the youngsters and whatnot. Equally, the the the the doctor said about the the mother... Father going to to therapy.

For us, it could be that that that knowledge going on to one of our courses or or in that moment, having your pause moment, having your having your kind of your breathing moment to to just regulate yourself, whether you're neurodiverse or not. You know, we all could have a short temper at times. So so there's so many ways we can we we can help and... Yeah. I'm just so optimistic about the future.

You coach 100... You've mentioned the coaching. You coach hundreds of children a week at your academy. When you see a kid beating himself up or herself up over one misplaced pass, what do you tell them?

So I'm I'm a brilliant coach, and and and not harrowing at all. I'm brilliant. And we're... I think a lot of us neurodiverse people, we are brilliant at helping others. We we almost, like, live to to help others, and and we are quite sacrificial of ourselves at times and not a good coach to ourselves. So it comes quite easy because I'm very passionate about helping others, so I can give great advice. I'm not saying I'd do it myself. But but, yeah, sorry. Could you could you repeat your question again? I'm I'm just right off on a tangent. Totally forgot. It's alright. No. I liked your tangent because, obviously, the idea of.

Helping others, I founded a charity, I'm with you entirely on that. The question was... And people will... Like, will resonate with many, the memory, and I've had the same. You coach hundreds of children a week at your academy. When you see a kid beating himself up over one misplaced pass, what do you tell them?

Yeah. So the reason I was talking about myself is because I've noticed these traits in myself when when all children will say sorry, for example. I I I always remember myself apologizing for things that don't need to poly... And I look back. You don't need to apologize. Why? It's not even relevant to this situation. So so I'm quite passionate about, in the right way, saying don't say sorry. There's nothing to be sorry about. You've given it your best shot. That's how we learn. That's how we develop. The best players are the ones that don't give up after that failure, that mistake. You try a skill. It doesn't work.

Like, who cares? Like, you've tried a skill. Football is all about... In younger age groups, it's about development for me. I think the problem comes when we have scores. Our own egos, our own kind of passions get involved for winning is when is when the development gets hindered or stunted. So for me, I encourage... Like, first of all, create... Try to create a safe environment that they feel comfortable to to express their self, experiment.

Try things, knowing they're not gonna get someone to have a go. And, actually, I'm kind of polar opposite. If they don't try things, that's usually when I kind of start saying, no. I wanna see something. I I don't wanna see one of my kind of things a bit harsh, bit brutal to expose myself here. If a player kicks the ball off the pitch in a defensive role for no reason, they get a couple of warnings. But then if it happens again, they they have a penalty against them. But that's on the ethos that I will applaud and and and and and and and really try to accentuate their creativity and and their kind of...

Their risk taking. And I don't call it risk taking because because I want them to try things and then learn from that. Every experience you learn from. So when something doesn't happen or they trip and they they they... First of all, I say, there's no sorrys. Guess what? If you try again, it'll get better. And then I'll give them a little bit extra time. I go, go again. Go again. Go again. And then you see them kind of getting the confidence. You see it in their in their body language. You see it in their face. And then when they get it, that's like a huge moment of pride in themselves. And they they they have that little look where they feel, like, chuffed and proud of themselves. So I I I try to be their best friend. I try to.

Encourage them to always explore into the hard parts. And and and that... Because that's how you're gonna improve. It's it's when you really push yourself into that difficult moments. It's actually when you will... If you keep on going, that's when you'll break that barrier and and and become become elite, excellent, whatever you wanna call. You know? So whatever standard the players are, I I don't mind. It's all about just trying to make the people with me as... Fulfill their potential or whatever that may be and and and really be a place of safety and and enjoyment because... And then then I like to bring my professional experience. Actually, we set certain standards.

So not standards in terms of what you've must must achieve, but standards in terms of what will allow them to have the best possible chance to achieve something. For example, if they miss... If they're if they're messing around or chatting, yes, that that that might be a regular... Like a regulatory kind of way that... To to to do things. But don't hit, like, if that's the way you learn about that child, you learn about that and play it because I've worked in a professional game as well. What they need is very different from the next person. So treat everyone as a human being, as an an... As an individual, and not kind of just broadly that we're all the same because that's not the case at all. You know?

Absolutely. And and and and can sometimes create where people are like, well, you're not doing it like that. You're out. Mhmm. Relatively minor thing is is used as... It's considered to be thought to be descriptive of a much bigger problem, but it isn't. It's neurodivergent showing up. Yes. Most of you've talked, you talked a little bit earlier about some grassroots coaches, their parent volunteers. You've always talked with great positivity about that energy that volunteers bring and and do. What's the one thing you'd want every one of them to know?

I think I think every coach always comes in with good intentions. I think sometimes with football, me, admittedly, I get so consumed by it. I I went and watched one of my teams last week, for example, and I meant to be kind of overseeing and stuff, but I just... I wanna get involved, and I wanna kind of and it's because I love it so much. I want the best for the players. But, actually, sometimes we have to just take a step back, look at the bigger picture. This is one session. This is one game in how many of their years of development. And I think that from that as a coach allows you to see things through a different lens and not so micromanage it, which then can add anxiety.

Stress, be... All coming from a good place that you want for the best of them. But I think we have to sit back, prepare right in your session so so that you you you... You're taking the stress load off yourself and you know what you you wanna achieve. But, also, with that, be adaptable. Sometimes, particularly young children can... Or any children or any young men or women, things don't go to plan. So if you... Even with that example, if you step back and you're just looking at the bigger picture, you can see, okay. That's not working today. Let's use plan b. Let's go to this that worked well before because I know they enjoy that to get reengaged and particularly neurodiverse children. They can they can become they can become distracted.

At times with with flatness or or or or things that aren't exciting or there's not a challenge. So set a challenge. Go and go and go and challenge that player individually so that you will get their buy in into that session straight away. Can you make five passes in the next minute? Can you can you show me free skills in the next free time you get the ball? You know? And you'll reengage that. And suddenly, you've got the session back on fire again. So it's about just having little ways of knowing, but you can only see that if you step back. If you step back and you're not so engrossed and and and and.

Passionate. Even if you're a neurodiverse coach, you're you're gonna be passionate. You're gonna be in there and want the best friends. So that's gonna help you as well as someone who's who's who's neurotypical. You know?

We've had some questions come in. This is from Alison. Mark, hope you can help. My 39 year old is embarrassed and ashamed that he might be ADHD. Brackets he totally is. What can I say to him, short and sweet, that will help him open the window to taking himself seriously and potentially seek a diagnosis? I was diagnosed last year at 64 years old. Thank you.

Yeah, it's a really good question. It's tricky because it's tricky because, again, this is why I did this, because I realized very early that there's a stigma a stigma around neurodiversity. So that's part of my aim. I wanna remove that stigma with the understanding. So, obviously, we don't know the case, the ins and outs, but it it... I'm guessing it it strikes me that it might be something that that they don't feel the value in, that they they they might have a negative connotation of of them for for letters. And I think maybe.

Maybe kind of getting something that resonates with them. Like, I've... I, for me, because I love football, I know by me coming out, lots of football fans who've... Would have no interest or no kind of intre... Into ADHD have come forward to me, and we've got that topic of of football that they actually come... I went for a few periods. They just come over to me and say, Mark, I've got my I've got my thing up. I've I've I've heard what you're talking about. It sounds really interesting. And I... I'm not saying the diagnosis is the answer whatsoever because just knowing is is enough for for a lot of people, but I really think maybe.

Maybe finding some things that that resonate, like, the topics of how it can affect your life, like, for me, the regulation emotionally, where I can feel flat, I can feel really kind of emotional, I can feel quite aggressive. I can... These are things that do affect my life. The memory, for example, I'm very aware that that my memory could be amazing, but in my working memory, I was I was, for example, I was really fearful of missing this today. That's the only stance I've got. Two or three friends that even though I was really on it today, and I thought I wasn't beside three friends that that reminded me just in case.

So I've I've gone off tangent again, but I think he's finding something that resonates with them. You know? It's... It has to be personable to them. It it it might be the answer for me and you, but, actually, is your partner just okay? He's happy with knowing a bit about it. So he's having an open, honest conversation on how that can actually help their lives and and and... Because they understand it might be enough. So that's something that's probably the most... Best way I could say without without knowing more details.... Thing that was that was that was very interesting. And I think what you've said is it's.

Not so much potentially the explanation because that might be something they've heard already and it hasn't... They haven't got to... Hasn't worked for them. And so instead, it's helping them understand more and find something that does resonate with them where they do recognize that in themselves and start... That starts to open the window to them exploring and understanding themselves.

Yeah. It's it's a journey, isn't it? It's a journey from from you. And and it's when the time's right for you.

Yeah. I used to decry that kind of phrase. I now really, really think it's right. And I... It's what that's... It's like, it really is a journey. You really do. Life time well is a journey. You've learnt and progressed along the way. We've had multiple questions. This one is, I see myself in a lot of your situation with my nervous system constantly overdrive and feeling intense emotion and self scrutiny. But it's always been passed off as anxiety, and I'm struggling to begin the process of receiving a neurodivergent diagnosis. So it'd be interesting to hear how you went about it.

So so, yeah, definitely. The the the the kind of the the central nervous system, I've learned so much. And I and I understand that meditation is... Or mindfulness is not for everyone. I came across a ten minute meditation after I got diagnosed, which was really important because for me, my understanding of meditation was all about you've got to be silent and you've got to be, like, in tune with the gods or or something like, you know, like, the the Buddhist kind of thinking. And, actually, it was when this simple ADHD medic... And that's why I did a kind of online neurodivergent Footballer website. We did a ten minute kind of meditation. It was about watching the thoughts that actually meditation is just about being...

Observing what's going on in your mind. So I'd sit there, and it says, like, kind of just lit... Watch your thought, almost like a cloud. Watch it come in, and then just acknowledge it, and then just, like, keep on breathing, and then you'll slowly see it just fade away. So I think that really kind of started the the the the kind of process for me of actually slowing down. Still, it's a daily challenge for me slowing down. It's it's something I've got to accept is me. In terms of anxiety, can get, like, the RSD, for example, the an... Anxiousness is is a learned skill which has been going on for forty four years. You know? It's not something I'm gonna.

Probably get rid of, but it's definitely something that can be managed in the best way possible. So I think what I do is... And it's really hard for people because ask busy schedules, but I make sure I go for a walk. A walk for me in nature or walk around the park or wherever it is is is not negotiable. It's not... I have to do it. I have to go and move in the gym. I have to... I've restarted playing football ever since I've done this because I know how important that is to me. And that was a big part of me going to football every day to not doing it because of my injuries. I had to return to it in some shape or form, so I created a hybrid of football for me selfishly. But it turned out it's helped now hundreds of people do the same.

So it's just prioritizing them times that you need some time away, some quiet time because I I said in... We talked about I could not relax. Relaxing was impossible. I really look forward to going on holiday. When I go on holiday, I would go... It'd be horrible for me. I'd be in paradise, and I would have to... Oh, we're gonna sit here for another hour, and I start getting nagging with the person person I'm with. Can we go for a walk? No. They just wanna relax. So I'd have to go on this walk by myself, and I get frustrated because you're not coming with me. And so.

So I understand how hard it is to calm down, but it's all about the breathing, and and and there's loads of breathing techniques that actually are really good at calming your central nervous system down to actually get to a place of slightly better. And the doctor before, he was saying about it's practice. It takes time. It takes it takes... I don't do as much as I used to do, but I did it because I was in a bad place before. So I saw how important it was to me. So I think that is really good. And then what what... In terms of the ADHD diagnosis is is you have to obviously start a process through the NHS. But if you've got money, then there is other options which are a lot quicker, unfortunately.

Yeah. And we'd obviously, if you're in England, direct people to Right to Choose, which allows you to get seen in within the NHS system, it's... But much more quickly into that. But there are now local restrictions and there's obviously things we're fighting. You've been amazing. It's been an honor to talk to you and you've been vulnerable, you've been open, you've been caring. You've been inspirational and really have and will be even more so for young people, particularly in football. It's a big deal. You're talking and you are being the change. And that's incredibly special. And thank you. I want to say thank you for that. I have to say goodbye to you. We've run out of time. No problem at all. In the very first conference.

I thought it was quite jolly to potentially run over. Discovered how hard it is to catch up. I regretted it. Well done and keep on skater on time. Pretty much, mutually. On need to say thank you to you in the way that we do. I really do want to say thank you. You've been amazing. Thank you for being an ADHD ADHD UK ambassador. Thank you for doing what you're doing with the neurodivergent footballer. And thank you for being an... I think being a vulnerable open inspiration is a pretty amazing thing. Thank you you know, very, very much. Thank you. And I know it's silly, but I love it.

Thanks, guys. Keep up the the amazing work as well. Well, thank you very much. And, yeah, very sad, obviously, to say goodbye. Thank you so much, and, obviously... Yeah. Thank you. Have a great rest of your day. Thank you for being part of the conference. Bye. Goodbye, Mark. He is amazing. He's an extraordinary He's he's an extraordinary person and, like, a valuable person in the world. You know, being, you know, being that inspiration and open and and fun is is beautiful. And I thought the... I thought when he said, I'm in a nice place. It's a nice place to be where I am now. I thought that was... I think as you hear the challenges he's gone through, I thought that was one of the most wonderful things things to hear.