One of the, leading Australian experts in disability, Hayley Dean. Hayley Dean is the CEO for Melbourne Support Services. Hayley's achievements over thirty years are well known across the disability sector in transformation, leadership, and in innovation. But today, I'm asking Hayley to join our journey, our success within the workplace. Whilst on paper, I'm extremely successful. As mentioned, I'm extremely passionate and proud to be the voluntary CEO for ADHD Australia. I'm also the interim chief operating officer for Malva. Hayley is my CEO within Malva. And through the successes I've had over twenty years plus, successes in the disability workplace, successes with charging for family services.

And across my numerous degrees and master's qualifications. What people don't often see is my disability. I'd like to say that I'm neurodivergent. I have ADHD, and I have co concurring conditions, which include learning difficulties and sensory processing disorders. What people don't see is this significantly impacts my everyday life. This significantly impacts my work life if I do not have the right leadership and support to help me. Some scary facts for us all. Gaining employment for a person with ADHD is challenging. We hear about it. We know about it. But do you know that most people with ADHD, particularly those with co concurring conditions, go unemployed? Let alone struggle within the workplace.

It's been reported that adults with ADHD are more than likely to be sixty percent of us to be fired. Thirty percent of us are more likely to have ongoing chronic employment conditions and are three times more likely to have quit our job impulsively because of the challenge that we face within the workplace. Today, I wanna talk about my experience. I want to talk about my experience because my experience with Hayley has been extremely positive. Hayley is the CEO for Melbourne as my manager, has done things uniquely different within the workspace. I want to talk to that today, and Hayley, welcome. Thank you, Mel. Hayley, what do you think the key successes are when supporting a person with a disability and those of ADHD in the workplace?

Okay. Well, firstly, thank you for your very gracious, introduction. And I think, Mel, is you're doing yourself a a great disservice in terms of the fact that you have been absolutely instrumental educating me and how I, as a CEO or as a leader, can support individuals who are neurodivergent or any individual in terms of diversity. So if you were to ask me which you did, what are the key elements? It comes down from my from my perspective, it's actually cultural. We see a lot of work, especially in Australia and I'm sure across the globe around inclusivity and diversity. We see a lot of documentation, a lot of frameworks, a lot of structure, policy, procedure. But at the end of the day, I know we've all heard the saying culture eats.

Strategy, but also structure for breakfast. And it's the same in terms of your work environment. This is not about having the right policy and procedure. Don't get me wrong. Very important that we have that. But what's more critically important is the cultural embracement of diversity and understanding the benefit of having a truly diverse workforce. And what that means is we need to open our minds to a different way of working. And in today's world, that's become easier actually as a result of COVID. COVID actually changed how we all worked. And especially here in Melbourne.

Whereby we spent a lot of time in lockdown, and we learned how to work from home. And I know the previous guest talked about the amount of time spent on Teams. But what that did do, in my mind, it opened up the possibility for innovation in how we work. And therefore, putting to bed some of those preconceived ideas of what meetings should look like, what reports should look like, how we present, and what that looks like. And once you can open your mind to that, you can see a whole raft of different opportunities in in how you lead and how you support people. Does that It makes absolute sense. So.

What I'm gonna say, Hayley, based on that, what are some of the things that you've learned, those personalized things? So one thing I know around your leadership and often what you talk about is that person centered approach. Help me to understand that about a little bit more about how you believe that other CEOs and other organizations looking in right now can benefit from that person centered approach. I think it comes from a human rights approach. We are all equal by virtue of being human, acknowledging the strengths rather than the deficits. What I find interesting in how we've behaved in the workplace.

For example, if you look to position descriptions, here in Australia, we'll have something in our position descriptions called reasonable adjustment. So what is a reasonable adjustment to make for an individual? That comes from a deficit base rather than the stress base. What does that person bring to the table, and what do we need to put in place to support that person to be their best self? And that shouldn't matter if somebody is neurodivergent or not. Yeah. It's really about what their strengths are. So, again, it's looking at what works for that individual to bring out their best self Mhmm. To bring out their competencies, and to bring out their skills. And by doing that, it actually creates.

That safe space for everybody else in your team. And for me, that should just be part of leadership. And if you were to talk to many leaders, they'll talk about, let's look at people's strengths. They want to be a coaching leader or a mentoring leader and being able to present an environment that enables people to be their best self. We hear a lot about authenticity and authentic leadership. That goes the same for people for diversity, whether it's neurodiversity, whether it's disability, whether it's people of color or diversity.

Thank you. So, Hayley, I think what would be fantastic is for you to share a little bit of your journey. What are some of your learnings that you've had and reflections on the learning journey that you may want to share with the audience about, I suppose, me. And the key thing about it's actually okay to be a team. It's okay to be a partnership. And sometimes not to know, and sometimes to get it wrong, and sometimes to reverse it and learn from each other. So I'm gonna put it to you. Give me some examples, Hayley. Where have you learned from? What we've done together is our learning journey?

Okay. Well, Mel, you know, I'll be very honest. The first time that we met, I was interviewing you, and you didn't get the job. Mhmm. And the reason for that was really partly my ignorance and understanding what you were bringing to the table in the interview. And the learning for me in that is actually giving people an opportunity to actually talk about what works for them in an interview. So in terms of embracing diversity in your workforce, it's actually going right back to the recruitment steps Mhmm. And asking someone what works for them in an interview rather than this is what we expect, which I raised earlier about what our preconceived ideas are about how someone should behave in a workplace, including interviews.

So, therefore, when it came to the time again to interview, we'd already developed a relationship whereby we could have an honest conversation about what was gonna work well for you. And I think it's not just about me, and that's why I was saying you're being very gracious, Mel, because you are also very honest about where you were coming from and the elements that were going to ensure you succeeded. So things like bright lights or taking breaks during an interview. So I knew exactly what was gonna work well for you, and therefore, we were able during that interview to be able to implement those strategies to ensure that you were your best self. And as it turned out, I was interviewing with two of our board members.

Who, by the way, folks were blown away by Mel, and it was a no brainer.

They actually said she had the job as soon as you walked out the door. And that was with those particular different types of, mechanisms that ensured that that environment worked well for you. And I remember what I'd say, and for many of my fellow colleague ADHDers out there and those of us that are I divergent, what I would say is is that the interview environment is very, very scary. So I'd say that what actually happened on the first time I came, I call it the the ADHD ramble. Sometimes we're so overwhelmed. We've got so much information going on that it comes. That's what it did on the day. It did. Sometimes the lighting and various different things that occur for me, created me to become quite overwhelmed and and really struggling.

Struggling to be able to focus, struggling to be able to know what's going on, struggling to be able to to articulate the conversation in the way that I needed to. And what I would say is through those small, supports in the next time we met for an interview. That lighting, we turned the lights off. We did. The work that we did together around the conversation about if you are coming across as not necessarily answering the question in the way that we need you to, I'll just ask you to take a bit of a breath. Feel free to be able to to go into that quiet space. That worked really well. And we went into the room, and Hayley gave me extreme positive reinforcement. Okay? So it's important that I think that for me feeling.

Extremely supported, but also knowing that in this particular space, not at any time did Hayley during that give me anything other than support and confidence to get the best out of me. But what that did still enable for me to do is to be able to answer the questions in the way that I absolutely needed to to prove myself to get this job. With what would you say to CEOs out there that are currently saying now or organizations that are currently saying now, look, it's pretty hard. All of these adjustments are pretty hard. I hear time and time again people's nervous back to Hayley, and I heard it the other day from another organization. Extremely nervous about what people see as a really big thing to change. How would you answer that?

Wow. That's very interesting because I don't see it as a massive change, but I know that it is. And I said before, it's actually a cultural shift. And the reason I raised COVID is that we learned to work in a different way very quickly during COVID. So it actually showed how agile we can be in terms of our organizational structures and the way that we function. So it's about using that to make that shift. What I would say is it's very important that it actually comes from the board. Mhmm. Not just the CEO. Sure. The CEO has influence. But in terms of it's how you see things. And, again, and I know it sounds a little twee or maybe too simple, but it's almost a mindfulness exercise of creating a blank canvas.

So that you're not seeing the traditional expectation of how people should work. You're actually opening your mind to a strengths based approach to how people work. Again, it shouldn't matter whether you're working with someone who's neurodiverse or other forms of diversity. It's being able to have that very open conversation about what works best for you. Does that make sense? Absolutely. So it's about, like, your honesty with me. And I think it is two ways. Mhmm. So it's the ability to have that very honest conversation with each of your employees or members of your team about what works best for them rather than overlaying it with diversity or inclusivity.

Come from a strength space. I mean, wouldn't it be wonderful when we employ people if each employee had their own sort of passport, should I say, whereby you actually have all your strength space, all your competencies that meet your role, but then all those different elements that are going to actually support you to perform your very best. And that's how we should look at every employee. Absolutely. Fantastic.

So I suppose then one of the questions I have for you is what does good look like, Hayley? What does good look like if you was to say, what are the things obviously, at this moment in time, you've you've given me a sense of support. You've given me a sense of safety to be able to disclose to you. What are some of the things that you would say, what does good look like in the future? So if you could put your wand out there and say, what does what does it look like? What are those things that are gonna be able to be changed? You talk a lot about the board. So what does a board look like for you in the future to be really, really diverge divergent, really, really different.

Looking completely different to what it looks like today. Okay. Celebrate difference. Well, I guess that's what it would look like in the future. I think the biggest challenge is the education and the cultural change. And and dare I say, if you've got any resistance, usually your board and your leaders are intelligent individuals and will believe research, and there is loads of research. Harvard Business School has done enormous amount of research on the benefit of diversity in terms of it increases your productivity.

And at the end of the day, whether you're a social enterprise, whether you're a not for profit, or whether you're a commercial operation, it's gonna improve your bottom line. And whether that's people getting better services or increasing your profits depending on what your world is, we know that greater diversity does that. So what would a board look like? It would be representative of humanity Mhmm. In all its diversity. I think for me, that's what the future would look like. Your leadership team's exactly the same. And and, really, it's as simple as that, but there is that education piece first. Yeah. And I think that's the critical point. And people love research. They love proof. They love rigor, and the rigor's there to.

Show that more diversity means better outcomes all around. Absolutely.

No. A 100% agree. So I think, what would we also good to to ask, Hayley, is a little bit about, you as an individual. Okay? So everything that you do is around a human rights approach. K? Everything that you live, breathe, and work outside is a human rights approach. I'd like you to I'd like to understand just the question of where does that come from, for one. And I'd secondly like to ask the questions about how do you bring that to be then effective in everything that you do within the workplace to celebrate the strengths of individuals with a disability and those with ADHD.

So let's go back to the first one. Tell me about you. Where does that come from? Where does that drive come from? Yeah. The first one's probably easier than the second one.

I was very fortunate in that my well, I believe I was fortunate, that my, maternal parents grew up in Liverpool in England. And my maternal grandfather actually worked as a shipbuilder on the docks in Liverpool pre World War two and was very much integral as part of the union movement. He was back then what you would call a true Marxist. Mhmm. So absolute believing in the equality of all. And we're talking, you know, mid nineteen thirties, and my mom would tell me stories that he would bring people home from the docks, from all over the world to have all these vibrant and robust conversations.

And, of course, my mom as a small child would sit on his knee and listen to the stories. And there was no such thing because back then, it was very much in England children should be seen and not heard, and that certainly was not her experience. It was about everybody having an equal voice. And so, therefore, that was how my mom was raised, and my dad didn't get a look in. It was basically that was how it was gonna be. And with that, she also raised us that we all have a responsibility just just by being human. So she would always say we are all equal by by virtue of being human, and you have a responsibility to humanity. And and for me, that's where it comes from.

Does that sort of give you a It does. And so one of the things I think is is that it's absolutely critical when you're working in an organization to take it from a human rights approach because, very much like you say, by virtue of being human, you know, that everything is is respected. We're we're all equal. How do you bring that into the workplace? How do you change difference in the workplace by bringing in that human rights values based approach? Talk to me a little bit about yourself and maybe also within Melbourne.

What does that mean? Do you know what? That is such a challenging question because I feel it's such an inherent part of me, but it does come down to authenticity. And it's being able to be and bring your authentic self to work and enabling that in all who are around you. And it does start with culture and values. So creating values in your workplace that all can relate to and then living and breathing those values. I think all too often and I I've been part of these wonderful workshops with these great marketeers, and they talk about your organization's values, and you put them on your mouse pads, and you put them up on the wall. But they often can be very esoteric. They don't have much meaning.

So for me, it's about taking those values and turning them into observable behaviors. What does that actually mean from an observable perspective every day? And then it's about the congruence, walking the talk. And that's really hard because that doesn't always happen. I would know that people would walk into Melva support services on some days and go, oh my goodness me. That does not fit our values. But what's important is that you've given people a voice in a psychologically safe space to be able to actually speak up and say, that does not meet our values. But to do that, they've gotta be observable behaviors. And then you've gotta be able to pull people up when they're actually not meeting those values.

So maybe then, Hayley, that is something that, is a really great, I suppose, tool and idea in terms of organizations globally. Thinking to your point above and beyond policy procedure, above and beyond what is stated in documentation or is through training is thinking about how do we measure, how do we have, I suppose, that kind of observational approach to watching behavior and seeing and feeding back on, really, are people living and breathing respect, dignity, everything being from a human rights lens to to people with disability, or is it just in a document? Is it in a document that's there? And I think we see that a lot. Look. We do. It's.

I've had experience recently, and there was a whole conversation about having to have a human rights policy. And Melbourne's had a human rights policy for over twenty years. But as I said earlier, it's more than just the policy. There's no point having the policy if you actually don't see it lived and breathed day to day. And, again, it's not it's simple in terms of what you need, what you should be doing. It's complex and difficult in actually continuing to embed that. So it is what you're saying. You still need to have the structures in place. You still need to have the policy and procedure, But without the cultural commitment, you're not gonna see it work. Yeah. And the measurable pieces is actually to do with the observable behavior.

So you have to ingrain that in everything you do. So when so that can be and I guess I'm getting into the granular very specifics, but when you catch up and meet with your reports, you should always have a section on your culture and your values so that you can actually have that conversation. Have you observed a b c, or have you not observed? And to be able to give that constructive feedback to support people. Does that so you actually have to embed it in every part of your structure It does. And your governance frameworks to ensure that it's being lived and breathed. And then you do measure it. You measure it through engagement surveys. You measure it through.

Feedback, individual feedback, and then global feedback. Yeah. No. It's fantastic.

So based on the statistics we said earlier, Hayley, and quite scary when we're looking at sixty percent of individuals with ADHD, as we see, are more likely to be fired, and thirty percent are more likely to have chronic employment conditions and, you know, a huge amount of not to gain employment. And what I'd say is is that people are quite fearful of maybe employing individuals of a disability because they don't have that education or they don't know what to do or they don't know how. What are some of our strengths, Hayley? What are some of the strengths of us beautiful, fantastic, amazing.

Super talented individuals with ADHD? We have, and we talk about all the time those challenges. But I'd like to to hear from you. What are some of me, but also to connect with the wider audience? What are some of our strengths that you think that CEOs, organizations, directors absolutely need to know? Because it's a a strength that can't be forgotten and is gonna add extra value to the organization.

Where do I start, Mel? Where do I start? And, admittedly, this is from my experience, and each and every one of you are individuals. We all are. But to speak from my experience, firstly, you've described it as a super strength. I think you've also described it as a superpower at times, which I would absolutely agree. One thing, no, one of many things that you bring to the table is your absolute passion and commitment to what you believe in. And what you bring is innovation, and what we're doing in the disability sector always requires innovation, but it requires innovation walking side by side with a person with a disability. Mhmm. And so, therefore, that is what you are continually providing to us. You are challenging.

So going back, one, passion. Mhmm. Absolute passion for what you believe in. Mhmm. Your ability to innovate and to see things through a different lens. We all bring that to the table, and I think we're missing. Can I say the neurodivergent lens? Mhmm. It is such a critical lens to the whole of humanity in terms of improvement of supports, services, if you're in the area of developing products, new products. Yeah. If you're in the area of innovation, and it wouldn't matter what the innovation is. It's actually bringing that different lens and challenging it. Also, you've also mentioned, which I've seen, your absolute commitment Mhmm. When you then get on board. And that can I say it's like a dog and a bone, and I love it because.

It's constantly wanting to achieve and constantly ensuring that those around you are on are on that journey with you? So it actually filters out. So it's that invigoration around your passion that then spreads to everybody around the room. I've seen it at exec meetings, can I say, whereby we'll be talking about something quite challenging, and Mel will bring up a whole different viewpoint? And all of a sudden, you've got everybody on board, and everybody is then feeling safe to throw out the most craziest of thoughts and opinions until we get to the solution. And.

Because you've created that space, we actually get to the solution, which is brilliant. Does that Yeah. Absolutely. And I think one of the the, you know, beauties when we're talking about, you know, really person centeredness, like you mentioned, is everybody being, you know, individual. We're all unique. We all have strengths. We all have challenges. I think from my perspective, it's a 100% commitment. So what I would say is anybody in an organization wanting to make a difference, anybody in an organization wanting to really truly create success in the workplace for individuals of ADHD.

You have to have somebody that truly wants you to be able to get the best out of you and to commit in you as a person and to achieve. So I think the the learnings for me is that and from what I'm hearing from you, Hayley, is that absolutely research, learning, development, you know, the board's influence, the executive influence. But the big takeaway for me is genuine commitment. It's more than words. It's more than what we have on paper. It's to physically see, to physically live, to physically breathe every single day, the commitment to the person that you're working alongside, to wanting to get the best out of them as a leader, and to be able to see that person to be able to thrive. So I've got two minutes left.

And in those last two minutes, I'd like to ask very quickly one more question, and that is, Hayley, if somebody wants to be able to, from the go, reach out to be able to to talk with you or to understand more about the work that's being done within Melba, where would you direct them to?

I direct them to Melba. So we do have, and I'm not sure what would be the best way to be able to pass on our, email address. Yep. But maybe we can do that through the chat. I'm not sure. Yep. Mel, we have a, or you can go on our web website, which is http://www.melvasupportservices.com.au. And there is a section whereby you can ask questions, or you can get one of us to call you back. And we'd be more than happy to share our learnings and to support in terms of what works best for you or your organization.

Thank you. And just to wrap up, I want to be able to say, thank you, Hayley. Thank you for your support. Thank you for your continued employment, with Melbourne believing in me as a person, but also as well not because I have ADHD, but because my ADHD is my super talent. I'm hugely proud of it. And for all those people out there with ADHD, for all those individuals that are neurodivergent, you know, yes, we have challenges. We absolutely do. But when we use our strengths in the workplace and we celebrate our strengths, then everybody can see them, and everybody will help to be able to achieve within the workplace a better outcome for all. So thank you so much.