Hello, and welcome from wherever you are around the world. What we just did there was a greeting that was in Maori or Torreo, and I basically said, I acknowledge you. I thank you for coming and introduce myself as Darren Ball as the chair of ADHD New Zealand. Now with us today, we're delighted to have our friends with Google. We're Roman Matla, director of Asia Pacific Diversity, Equity and Inclusion and Doctor Bonnie Zhang, a security engineer from Google Sydney. Roman is in Singapore. I'm in Wanaka, and Bonnie is in Sydney. So this is a truly global conversation.

But before we go on, what I might do is ask you, Roman, first of all, introduce yourself, and then we'll pass to you, Bonnie. Sure. Kia ora, everyone. Thank you for having us. It is an absolute pleasure to be here with all of you.

So, yeah, my name is Roman Matla. I'm based in Singapore. I've been with Google for just over two years now, but, I have been a diversity and inclusion practitioner for the last twenty years based here in Singapore. So I'm originally from Canada, but I I I think I identify far more as sort of part of this region. And certainly Singapore, it's it's been, like I said, home for the last twenty years. This this was actually quite funny. This was a cold call for me in terms of getting involved with, ADHD UK. The the request came through LinkedIn, and I, you know, I normally would never just jump on something unless it really, really meant something to me. And I responded to that cold call almost immediately.

And we were able to connect with our our friends and colleagues at ADHD UK and said, listen. Google's really, really happy to get involved. However, we can. Right? So we're gonna share a couple of things that we do internally that I think helps us as as Google and as Googlers. But, you know, again, it's just one one of many, you know, sort of ways of tackling ADHD at work. So, again, super, super happy to be here. Very honored. And, yeah, I'll I'll pass it back over to you.

Thank you. And and, Bonnie, tell us a little bit about yourself as well in Sydney and what you do.

Okay. Thanks, Lauren. Hi, everyone. It's a pleasure to be here again. My name is Bonnie. I am now a security engineer at Google Sydney. I've been at Google for about two and a half years. My story is I have known I have ADHD for about three, four, five years now and only went through the process of getting formally diagnosed earlier this year. I have been involved in the Asia Pacific subgroup of the ADHD group at Google, and that's how I got involved in this event. So Raymond reached out in a similar situation.

Fantastic. I have to ask, what was the path to getting diagnosed as an adult actually like?

Yeah. So I think I had to really wait until I was ready. So I had sort of lived with ADHD, basically, my whole life and have consciously known about it since probably the time where I was halfway through my PhD, so a couple years ago. And then have basically managed that myself, figured I was surviving. And then a lot of people have said that, yes, you may be surviving, but medication for me, personally, was the thing that changed my life, and I heard that from a lot of people. So by the time I was ready to take that step, it was just I knew it was gonna be a long and expensive process. And I just went through those steps and that got me to the point where I could access medication.

And what's your PhD in, Bonnie?

I did my PhD in astronomy in astrophysics, and the topic was supernova cosmology, which is using exploding stars to measure the expansion rate of the universe.

So I have to I have to ask, like, that sounding rude and being disrespectful to everyone else with PhDs. This is a PhD. Right? So how do you do half a p ADHD with ADHD? What did you do? What are the sort of differences you noticed?

I found it really hard because I think up until that point, I had been getting by, I think, just through a structured environment, like, getting through school that way. And then in undergraduate, just choosing subjects I had a lot of interest in. So in math and physics and still having a structured environment. Yep. So I could I'd had no problem just sort of diving into problems that's in hyper focusing for hours at a time. When it came to a research environment, it was very self directed. So I I had a wonderful supervisory panel with all very lovely, kind, and caring people. I still found it hard to manage myself and apply that executive functioning that I don't have to structure my own research, my own learning, and how to.

Just manage the thing that I was doing. As to how I managed, I think so so doing it with undiagnosed pip undiagnosed ADHD, I think I just was extremely pragmatic in how I did things. So what I mean is I had to be realistic about the limitations and what worked and what didn't work instead of trying to be better. So for example, if I had to if I knew I had to have the accountability of writing a thesis in a public place, like a cafe where people could see my screen, then I could actually get more writing done that way. And so I would just do that. I I also wrote in places that weren't a cafe. I worked basically everywhere. Things like setting up external deadlines. So for example.

Booking a final thesis talk for which people had to fly in from the state. That that was a hard deadline. And setting a date at which I was transitioning from part time work, so two days a week to five days a week at my software engineering job. At which point, I really needed to finish up.

And once you got diagnosed with ADHD and got the medication, how dramatic was the change?

It was like so everyone has a different analogy for this. For me, it felt like my brain was badly tuned radio that was almost the right channel, but just slightly off. And then once I started medication, it just was clear and quiet and calm. Yep. And I could actually focus on what people were saying and get through an hour long meeting without being completely lost at the end. So it was remarkable.

I I think you're remarkable to do a PhD in a subject like that. There's a lot of questions I have with you. But, Roman, I understand you're a parent of someone with ADHD, and there will be a lot of caregivers who will listen to this little video. How what is your story with ADHD?

Yeah. Well, thanks for asking. Yes. Indeed. I I'm a parent of two awesome kids, a son who has dyslexia and a daughter who has h ADHD. My daughter was always the kind of the kind of child that she kind of always lived in her own world. And I remember when she was in primary school at the beginning of her her educational, journey, you know, she was in a local school here in Singapore. And and, again, no no disrespect to the to the system, but she was labeled as a child who, you know, simply just doesn't pay attention, won't really amount to much. She was sort of she was ostracized. Mhmm. She she was the only child in the class that had, you know, a laminated.

Rule set that was taped to her desk saying, I must do this. I must do this. I must do this. And I thought, you know, this this just isn't right. And and long story short, we we we moved her to an international school, which we thought was going to make a big difference. We we actually moved her to the same school her brother went to. And, again, this was now in fourth so year four, as she had a a new teacher that was new to Singapore and new new to teaching. And, again, my wife and I had this horrible parent teacher conference, like the worst PTZ we've ever ever had. And the teacher was labeling our daughter as a troublemaker, somebody who went out of her way to be mean to other kids. Like, she described a child that wasn't our daughter.

And in her infinite wisdom, and bless her, she chalked it up to hormones and puberty, which I've subsequently that, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of diagnosis around ADHD, particularly in young girls, is attributed to that. Just that. Right? So my wife and I just said, listen. This is just not right. This isn't on we we went on to one of these closed, you know, anonymous parent groups, here in Singapore. And we asked for, you know, does anybody know of an educational psychologist that we could work with? And we were put in touch with a gentleman here, fantastic, fantastic psychologist.

Who spent the better part of eight weeks with our daughter, you know, on and off, doing a proper assessment. And and the funny thing was, I think a lot of kids would have just said, oh my gosh. Like, I have to do this again and roll their eyes. Our daughter actually loved going to doctor Richard. She absolutely like, they they got on so well because what he did was he he helped her identify that her ADHD was in fact, you know, a superpower. And I I and I know Henry hates that, you know, or dislikes the term superpower made perhaps in adults, but it's a wonderful way to describe ADHD to a child who simply just doesn't know why they are treated differently or.

Why they might behave differently than other kids. So needless to say, once she got the diagnosis, the diagnosis came in and confirmed what my wife Heather and I had known for years and years and years. Ever since she was a toddler, we knew there was something unique about Kalina and the way she experiences the world. And it was a cool thing, like there was nothing bad at all. She's a wonderful, hilarious, empathetic, gorgeous, just little tiny human being who simply experiences life differently. Mhmm. And much like my pal, doctor Bonnie here, medication for Kalina was was a game changer. And it was really, really difficult for us as parents to go down that path because, you know.

I'll be real with you. I think parents go, jeez, medication, and you start thinking, oh my gosh. Is this gonna somehow screw up my kid? Is she going to it's like, is it gonna is it gonna chill her out to the point where her her personality changes? What are the side effects? Is she gonna be dependent on it? And so we tried a number of different avenues, and we landed on one particular medication that changed everything. So she went from, you know, being labeled as a troublemaker to, you know, absolutely flying through math, science, English, drama, art. She's been following very much in the footsteps of her brother. Yep. It's really, really creative and super, super intense.

With what she loves. Right? But now that she's got the diagnosis, the school gives her the learning support that she needs to thrive. And I'm so grateful that we made that decision, a, to to switch schools, but to also get a professional diagnosis done. And I think that's really, really key. And as uncomfortable as it may be as a parent, there are also groups like we have internally, and we'll talk about it a little bit. We have this ADHD group, you know, in in APAC and globally, and I joined that as a as a, you know, close member of this community. And I learned so much. I mean, it was really really a godsend for for my family and I. So, again, it's a long story, but, you know, contextually.

It's really important for carers of kids, particularly kids with ADHD, that you take your time, do your research, but also take that leap of faith because what we ended up doing was unlocking all of that potential that she she that she always had, but was never given the opportunity to to really thrive and flourish. Mhmm.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing. As a parent of two ADHD children, we have such remarkable different remarkably similar stories from different parts of the world, which speaks to the fact that the issues with ADHD are global. But I just wanna pick up on one thing that you mentioned, and that was the importance of a support group. Roman, can can you quickly sort of talk about how important that is? And then, Bonnie, I'm gonna have her talk to you about the support groups that you helped us start at Google. But I think they're really critically important.

Oh, you know what? We couldn't have done this. And and it's funny. You can find support groups just about anywhere. I mean, now that the Internet is just it's it's chock full. So it's it's a double edged sword, by the way. It's it's kinda like, you know, when you have a cough and you go to WebMD and diagnose yourself, and then, oh my gosh, you've got everything wrong with you and suddenly you're dying. Very true. You can do that. You can totally do that with something like ADHD. You can get lost in quagmire. But what was really, really helpful was a, the ADHD group at work because that allowed me to realize how many colleagues were actually living with ADHD and how many colleagues actually cared for others with ADHD. I also met with.

A woman who teaches at my daughter's school, and she's trying I mean, god bless her. She is on, like, a crusade to change the educational system. And we actually went to her place. We had a bottle of wine with her, and and she helped. She basically talked us off the ledge. We were so stressed out. We're so worried. Yep. If it wasn't for that community, she's got three neurodiverse children, and it was so helpful to realize that we weren't alone. And so you'll find you'll find the support in the unlikeliest of places. Yep. And once you do get that support, you'll realize very quickly that neurodiversity.

And particularly ADHD is a heck of a lot more prevalent than we than I ever thought. Right? It's it's all around us. So Yeah. This concept of normality, it's, you know, normal like like I said, normal normal people scare me. And the other thing that I'd like to say is, like, as education, as the education systems evolve. Yeah. I come from a a family of educators. My dad was a calculus professor for fifty two years. My grandmother was a teacher. Grandfather was a teacher. Yeah. And yet, you know, like, in in 2022, many teachers are taught how to, you know, referee a football match as part of their PE curriculum. But they're not taught how to spot a child that may be neurodivergent.

And they have no idea, and therefore, make these mistakes like, oh, it's just puberty. And Yep. That that can you imagine what that must do to the confidence of a child? Right? So, again, those support going back to the original questions, the support group are all around us. And don't be afraid to reach out because, yeah, we're we're not alone.

Yeah. Look, I think that's the underlying importance of a community is that you're not alone. And also when you're coming home having been there and your your teacher and the schools told them that your child might be having problems with hormones in teenage years, to actually have a support group which turns around and says, no. Don't give up and keep going. And, Bonnie, I wanna wanna bring you into the equation. You've started a support group with Google for people with ADHD, haven't you?

Yeah. So as Roman mentioned, there's a global ADHD group that's within Google, and that's part of the formal employee raise resource group or ERG called Disability Alliance. So there's differing opinions on whether neurodivergent is a disability. That's less the ADHD group is part of that. And then I started an APAC subchapter for purely selfish reasons. So when I came to Google, I I struggled a lot in the unstructured environment, and I, at some point, looked up ADHD on the internal resource internal search and found this global group and lots of people, lots of really useful conversations, lots of resources. They also had some monthly meetups. But if you're living in Australia, Google's quite a North American company.

I.

Think these meetups were happening about 4AM Australian time. So at the time, I just sent out a few messages that said, who would be interested in in attending something that's in an APAC time zone? Mhmm. And enough people said yes that I just did the thing. And then now we have a smaller group that's got people in Sydney, Singapore, Tokyo, India, and we all get together once a month or so. No obligation. Just drop in, and we have a smaller chat. And it's a very culturally diverse region. I mean, you can imagine that that someone experienced in Australia is going to be very different from, say, Japan or India. So it's it's really nice to have that spread of different cultures and just be joined by time zones and similarity.

Yeah. And, again, very understated. I'm really keen to understand how you get people to come out and join a group. You you don't just say, I have a group and they come, or is that what happens? You know?

Sure. I think people didn't necessarily know about the APAC group to begin with. I think it helps a lot that at Google, there's a culture where neurodivergent or other kinds of difference or deviation from normal, whatever that means, is celebrated. And it's a culture where you have people who are very senior and very successful in their careers. So engineering directors, senior managers, just very smart technical people just talk about their ADHD. Like, it's no big deal because it's not. Like, Roman has said, it's very common. It's extremely common in the place of Google. And so does when you join the Global ADHD group, it's massive. There's so many people in it. And so Yeah. I I think people don't see it as more stigma than.

It really is, and they shouldn't be. Right?

Yeah. That's right. That's exactly right. In in staying with you, Bonnie, what impact do you think of such a group and support groups in both the APAC areas and globally really have on Google's workplace diversity and inclusion approach?

I think they have been very important to feeling like you belong. So there's two sides of this. I think one is the practical help or the resources. As I said, everyone's on their own journey and people are at different stages and everyone has their own experience. So it's immensely helpful to have people who have gone through it the same thing before, just share their experiences of how they, for example, sought helps or Mhmm. Or told their manager or got access to medication or accommodations or how to sort of frame their difference in how their brain works. Mhmm. I think the other side of it is just community. So having people who get it, who who understand how your brain works, and are willing to just.

Hang out and chat and Yeah. Sharing your joys or frustrations. It's you know, it's it's so cool.

You're actually living and being a leading example of what it's like. And so you would be a inspiration for people to come out and talk about their ADHD as well. And, Roman, switching to you, you know, going from my previous conversation as well as this, you know, diversity inclusion, yep, I get that. It's really important. But Google have really defined it quite a bit into this term belonging, and I'm interested to see really what that actually means for Google. Yeah. It's it's something that I, you know, I think all of us are are really proud of.

If you think about belonging and the essence of belonging, belonging trans transcends culture. It transcends language, faith, geography. It basically it's the core of being human. Right? We all need to feel that sense of community and that sense of belonging. And with that comes psychological safety, comes value, comes you know, it's not tolerance. Right? It it's really truly being valued for who you are regardless of who you are. Right? It's Yeah. A beautiful thing. And you can have I think it's it's also something worth recognizing that belonging is not something that you you you cross a finish line and say, yep. I belong. Belonging belonging ebbs and flows, right, based on the experience that you have at work, at home, in society.

Right? Yeah. Little things can make you feel othered, which is the opposite of belonging. Right? And so I think when it when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion, these are all incredibly important and very different sort of components. Almost like it's it's like an equation. Right? Mhmm. And the belonging piece is that result, and that's what we want to get to. And I think we've done a really good job. It's not perfect, and no organization is we're dealing with human beings. Right? And so that in itself is complex because every single one of us is wired very different. There are no two people that are the same. And so this this the search for belonging that that we have at Google is something that and particularly in APAC.

Where, you know, Bonnie mentioned we have, you know, such a wide variety of 15 different markets, dozens dozens of languages and and dialects. Like, how how do you explain certain concepts like allyship or inclusivity? You can you can boil it down to the common denominator that we all need that sense of belonging. And that's, I think, one of the truly refreshing things that I've seen in my twenty years of doing this work is that I think we finally gotten onto something. Yeah. We haven't we haven't we haven't perfected anything, but it is something that allows us to be us as Googlers in the office, warts and all. It doesn't matter who you are. We all bring something unique to the organization. Mhmm.

And you make it sound so simple, but how did you go about creating that sense of belonging? You know, what are some of that training, events, things like that?

Yeah. And listen. So, you know, when we talk about DEI, for example, diversity, equity, inclusion, it's not a program for us. It's not a a series of events for us. It's part of our core DNA. So DEI in our DNA, if you will. And part of the strategy that we have that we employ internally, like we've got, our employee resource groups. We mentioned, our disability alliance. But we've got, you know, employee resource groups that focus on various communities, whether it's based on gender, based on culture, language, socioeconomic diversity, what have you. And those community groups come together not only to give voice to underrepresented communities, but also allows people to lean in as allies. And allyship, in particular.

Around, you know, neurodivergence or neurodiversity, is so incredibly important because the neurotypical people oftentimes don't get a chance to understand what it's like to be neurodiverse. Or how can I help you? Yes. How can I be a voice or an amplifier? But also, how can I learn? This is all about learning. So our ERGs are incredibly, incredibly important. The the the disability alliance that I spoke about, we have training. Training is great, but it's not a silver bullet. We have Mhmm. A neurodiversity self self paced online training, which actually, I'm not a huge fan of of self learning. But I can tell you this was incredibly.

Incredibly helpful because as I mentioned earlier, I've got a son who's got dyslexia and a daughter's got ADHD. Know, those were two massive components. We also talked about autism and it's like, it just blew my mind in terms of how little I actually knew at at my starting point. So training helps sort of us realize if you have this voracious curiosity, it it does help us get better at being either, more informed and being less ignorant Yep. But also seeing how we can support each other. And then the last thing that I'd say is, like, again, we we have this pretty cool culture at Google. And across APAC, we have a program that was modeled after the television show, You Can't Ask That. And it's affectionately known as YCAT. And YCAT at Google.

And it's it this is, like, only done in Asia Pacific. Last week, we had we had a session on, you know, living with depression and anxiety. Do you know how many people like, there were there were over a 100 people that just jumped on this call to listen to Googlers talk about their own story. Now that that to me is also personal. Right? Because I've dealt with that both personally and caring for somebody that Yep. That had issues around mental health. Mhmm. And we've we've created these safe or brave spaces, and and brave is probably a better term than safe. Yep. Brave allows us to screw it up sometimes. And Yeah. Oftentimes, will will say something or do something with all the right intent.

But the impact might be negative. So things like YCAT, things like our ERGs, the various events that we do have allow us to come in and learn and realize that none of us are perfect and that this is a learning journey and it's about continuous improvement as as individuals and then collectively as a community.

And, you know, this I believe over a 100,000 employees across the world in Google. This is no easy task. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So you scaled this, basically.

Mhmm. And that's part of our culture, you know, like, Google's only 24 years old. It's a young come I know. My son's 25. I mean, jeez. I know what a 25 year old is like. Yeah. And Google one one of the coolest things about Google is that since our inception, when Sergei and Larry created the company, they leaned into the culture right away, and they they that culture was like, that was the nucleus of everything that we do, and and it's so incredibly important for us. We maintain that, and that's what that's what kinda makes us unique. And like I said, it's not perfect, but it is it allows people like myself and and Bonnie to be able to come into a place where we're valued. And that that.

You know what? I'll take that over any other job that I've ever had. Right? Yeah. Well said.

And look, many organizations and there'll be those watching this going, we have such a culture. We we do an annual employee survey and they take 4.5 every year, and so we must have a annual survey. I mean, how do you measure this? Because it seems much more real than, say, a celebration lunch of a different culture. But you definitely measure it, don't you? Oops. Just lost your sound there, Roman.

I'm sorry. I know we're in 2022, and we're still, you know you're on mute. Apologies. We're we're an incredibly data driven company as you would imagine. Right? Yes. It's kinda like what we do. And and that data is important for us. We we do the annual survey, right, that a lot of companies do. But for us, Google Guides goes far beyond. It it it focuses on many different areas around, you know, how how employees are experiencing their their time at Google. The one thing I'll say about, you know, employee surveys is that remember that they're just a point in time. They're backwards facing. Right? They're not that doesn't tell you what behaviors need to change necessarily.

Or how you're going to change those behaviors. Maybe it tells you what needs to change. We lean into specifically a number of very, you know, detailed questions that elicit responses around inclusion. Right? And we call it the inclusion index. And a lot of managers, you know, they get their scores and they wanna they wanna start fixing right away. Google Googlers are are very driven to fix stuff. Right? Yep. You know, this bias towards action, it's great. But, you know, it it it does allow us to continuously look at, you know, what does need to change. And and our leaders and our Googlers expect that things will change for the better. Right? So I I think when where you have a culture that values that feedback.

Mhmm. I have been in other organizations that when you got your annual survey, I would go. Right? You're like, oh. Yep. Yep. I'm here. I'm here. 20 questions, I gotta fill it all out. But, you know Yeah. The 90 or a 100 questions that we fill out, they're meaningful, and and it shows us that we are as an organization, we care, and we wanna we wanna act on that feedback. But also, you know, it's not just about Google Guides once a year. It's about creating an environment where you can talk about the things that need to change or the things that are going really well in an open way. So, again, that culture of openness, the culture of, you know, continuous feedback, I think is what what what helps us.

Keep our finger on the pulse in terms of how we measure things. And you can also the other thing too, I mean, let's be real. We can't measure everything in this world. You can That's right. You can totally feel it, and it is a feeling. It's right here. Yeah. You know when you belong, and you know when you don't. Right? Yeah. It's pretty simple. So, as a leader, you need to be looking around you and saying, am am I creating an environment where everybody is valued? Am I checking my biases? Am I am I truly empathizing and understanding, you know, what others might be going through? And and and I think that's that's that constant it's a good thing. It's a constant pressure on us as Googlers to always think about, you know, the collective.

But also, you know, how do how do we show up in that. And.

Bonnie, picking up on that, what's it like to feel like that you belong? What does that mean for you?

I think it mostly means that I am appreciated for who I am. And this isn't just for neurodivergent people. It's for it's for anyone in the company. Yeah. Whatever however they are different or however they're not different. Mhmm. I feel like I don't have to be a different person. I can I don't have to hide, like, different the ways in which my ADHD presents, for example? I can be appreciated for what I can bring to the table for who I am and not just tolerated. Yep. Which I think was something that Roman referred to and something that came up in last week's conversation quite a bit as well. Just saying Yeah. That's very appreciated.

And you would have come across, you know, perhaps friends, people outside of Google who feel like they don't belong? I mean, that must be a pretty scary place if you feel like you don't belong.

Yeah. I mean, I think we've all been there. Let's put our hands up for those of us who've worked in in environments that you know, toxic would be an understatement in some cases. Actually, I worked I I I did work with people that went out of their way to create really hard environments for for people. And I just don't I don't understand that. And so it's nice to be on the polar opposite end of that and to be sort of stewards of a culture that, again, not perfect, but boy oh boy, I'd take this over anything else I've ever had.

That's that's right. And I guess also, I must start from the very beginning, which is your recruitment process.

Yes.

So how does that work from us building a sense of belonging? Because that's where it starts, really. Yeah. Of course. And, you know.

Let let let's let's sort of dissect this a little bit. When when people are when we recruit, right, prospective, you know, employees, candidates will also Google whack us. Right? They wanna know what kind of environment. And that's fair. Right? It's not just one way. It's not you can't just have it all your way. Right? Individuals, like, be before I was hired, I I did all my research. I wanted to understand what the culture stood for, and it was something that, again, from a values perspective, really drew me in. It was it was like a magnet. And so, you know, we're really committed to and this sounds sort of cliche, making diversity, equity, inclusion part of everything that we do, particularly around recruiting. So our hiring managers.

Go through a series of sort of reinforcement trainings, right, around unbiasing, around we have a program called Culture Add and not Culture Fit. And I remember speaking to somebody a couple of weeks ago when I was in Korea, and they were from a massive f and b organization. Huge. One of the biggest in the world. Mhmm. And she was sort of debating with me. She's like, well, why would you why would you want people that are different? Shouldn't you, by right, try and attract people that will fit your culture? But then you have like, where's your diversity of thought and diversity of experience? Where's like, no. I I'm always looking for who can add that awesome piece that's missing.

And so we work really, really hard not just with our hiring managers, but also our recruiters. Right? Because they're out there sourcing candidates for us. They're out there on the front lines. And they also need to speak to our culture eloquently in a way that's going to attract people. And not it's not a sales pitch. You have to be honest. You have to be open. You have to be, you know, genuine with with, with how you speak about the organization. But, again, you know, we we make no secret that we look at, you know, diversity as a superpower for us in the region. It is our superpower in this region. And and we lean into it very, very, very much.

And both of you, I understand, have recruited people. I'm really interested at what stage or if at all do people come forward and say, I'm neurodiverse. I have ADHD. I I'm autistic. I have dyspraxia. Is that something that you actively ask for, do you sort of leave it to come out as you get to know them?

You know, I think when when you're hiring people so I'll I'll speak just purely from my experience. I I've hired a team. We've had massive growth in my team over the last year and a half. And one of the questions that I ask as an interviewer, usually at the at the latter part of the conversation, is, are there any accommodations that you might need? And by asking that question, you're almost saying that I'm not assuming that you're just gonna you come in and and start your work and that that there's something that you might not actually need us as a company to get the best out of you. And so it's a wonderful way.

And and, again, I I also think the way people interview and the conversation needs to be genuine and real. So I try and make people feel, again, valued for who they are and what they bring to to any organization. Mhmm. But I wouldn't go out and say, you know, like, please tell me everything about you in this, you know it's people are nervous when you interview. Right? It it it it's hard. And a lot of interviewers are are equally, you know, nervous. So I think I think one of the things that we need to do is not be afraid to ask, is there something that's missing? And then that opens up a door and allows us to make modifications whether it's to the workplace or to a schedule or, you know, understanding.

What what each of us might need from an individual perspective. And.

Bonnie, just building on that question, what sort of accommodations for you personally does Google have which can help you be amazing with your ADHD and amazing as a security engineer, which, you know, doesn't sound like the easiest of jobs either?

Sure. So for me, personally, I haven't asked for any accommodations. There's many different kinds which are available. Things like sitting in a less traffic area. Everyone gets noise canceling headphones. Yep. I have seen people sort of set up light blocking devices. The most extreme example was someone who built a tent in their cubicle and just worked inside it to not get distracted. The environment which has helped me, I think, has been just people who, like Roman said, have left the ball in the employees Yep. To to disclose and ask when they think they needed. And there's many people who I've told who have reacted with, okay. Cool. No big deal. Here's my personal experience with ADHD. Yeah.

And I think that makes it a lot easier to just be able to say, okay. I'm having a bad focus week, or this is what I'm going through right now and this is what I what you could do to help me if I need that. And just being able to ask for help and know that I won't be judged for it. Yeah.

And look. I'll give you an example that makes me worry a little bit. So I mentioned before, I'm a father of a teenage son with ADHD. And in effect, he loves doing his homework and study with loud music as much as possible. It's YouTube. And I I you know, I'm nearly 50, and I just think that that can't happen like that. And, you know, we've had some tension about it, and I don't know if I'm disappointed, but he won. He can study a very loud music. It's not Bruce Springsteen. I can tell you that. And on top of that, he does much better. And I I think where I'm getting to is, obviously, he's taught me that giving some accommodations, and I've got a bias that my way is right is is a problem for me, not for him.

And I'm really interested interested how you have that conversation with a manager who's saying, what do you mean you're not listening to Bruce Springsteen? What do you mean you need headphones? Just look quiet. Just start typing. I mean, it's really their problem as a manager, not the person who's neurodiverse, isn't it?

Yeah. And thankfully, haven't had to. I I think it helps when people just trust you to know what's best for you. And I I really like the example about this, your child with the headphones last time because we were just talking about the ways in which neurodiverse or ADHD brains are different. Mhmm. And I I had a friend who explained it to me as music was the way that she typed the thread of her brain that distracted her to so she could just get on with her work. And that to me made perfect sense. And Mhmm. I think that leads into how I think employees can contribute more to the workplace Mhmm. Just by having brains which are slightly different.

One way I can say ADHD brains as being different to generalize majorly is we tend to have more parallel things going on at the same time. Mhmm. So I think that leads to more more easily con context switching and getting distracted, but also being able to make creative links between seemingly unrelated things and to problem solve outside the box and to connect thoughts which other people may not be able to see.

Again, I love the way you two speak. Like, this is a way of life throughout the world. Right? This so there'll be people who are watching this. And there's certainly people out there who, for years, have been trying to replicate the Google model. Right? But very few organizations are stepping into diversity and inclusion and bringing that sense of belonging. And I really appreciate how authentic you've both been. And so my question to you, Roman, is why do you think especially if a company like Google where everyone wants to replicate it, why do you think companies are not getting it?

Oh, that's a great question. I don't know if I don't know if it's so much that companies aren't getting it. I think diversity, equity, and inclusion in in many instances is still seen as a program. It's an HR thing. Right? Yep.

Oh, Roman has left the meeting. I'm sure he's linked on the wrong button, and he'll be back. But I'm gonna be a bit rude, Bonnie, and ask you that question because I was going to. You know, why do you think people and other organizations don't get get it?

I think Google one thing that Google gets right is we approach it from the top down and also from the bottom up. So what that means is there's programs like what Roman's leading and has referred to where we think about DEI as part of all of our work and have that training for managers, directors, senior leadership, and so on. But, also, what that does is fosters an environment where people can form grassroots organizations like the ADHD group. And it becomes part of the culture to to talk about what people need in the community and and just be able to talk about difference and belonging Yep. From the level of the employees who can put from that.

Yeah. Look, that's a really good point. There's so much top down, but still an organization can't change. And then you know, grassroots, that's the real connection, isn't it? Yeah. I get that. Look. We are running out of time, but I quickly wanna talk about COVID. COVID would have created some issues for Google, depending on what country you're in as well, like it did for the rest of the world. And I understand you moved to a hybrid working week as well with Google's.

Yeah. That's right. So I'm on a team that's currently two days in the office. Yep. So we get the best of both worlds. We get to work from home and have focus time, and we also get to see our colleagues in person. I think the start of work from home was really challenging for a lot of people. Yeah. It was difficult to start at Google at that time. I think transitioning a whole company besides Google to that environment and then going back to the hybrid work week. Yeah. We have learned a lot.

Yeah. Hello again, Roman. Hello, Roman. We've learned a lot about it. My gosh. Okay. So we're back. The good thing is we can edit this. So That's okay. I think it's part of the experience. I I think it's hilarious. Right? You you asked me this question and boom. Biped my laptop. And you know what's funny? I was charging my earphones. Yeah. We got to plug it back into my laptop and boom. So I apologize. Maybe we can we we can do a I one of those Yeah. Totally. Right. The the.

There will be the conspiracy theorists out there who will say, Google didn't want you to say that. Exactly.

May maybe I'll start again. I I mean, it's not it's not that companies don't get it. I think it's still seen. In many cases, it's it's it's a nascent journey for some companies. Yeah. So it's, you know, it's starting off. And it's funny because, again, you know, I look at Google. We've we've been around for twenty four years. This was part of, you know, the the culture. And I think organizations that embrace that and make, you know, diversity, equity, and inclusion a part of their strategy like you would any business strategy. This is how we treat our employees, also the communities that we we live and work in. Right? So our products and our services need to be inclusive as well.

I think I I think we're seeing a a a difference and a shift. I can say that in twenty years, you know, attitudes have changed since, you know, since I got into this work. I mean, when I first started doing this work, I was called a waste a waste of headcount. Yep. People people said this is an American problem. And I said, well, that's good. I'm from Canada, so I can do this work. And and, yeah, it was. It it was not it was really difficult. And particularly in this region where people said, you know, like, this is Asia. We have this. Diversity is not a big deal. Diversity is one one component. Diversity is simply difference. And diversity that goes unchecked.

Right? And you you unlock the power of diversity through inclusion. Right? And if you don't do that well, then you've got conflict. Look at the world around us. We live in a polarized world because of difference. Right? That's right. And so I think I think companies need to study this as a phenomenon in business success. I actually think there's there's not just the moral case for DEI, but certainly a business case. You're gonna outperform companies that don't I think so. Part of their their culture. Yeah.

And, you know, in in organizations may wanna be a little bit selfish about this as well. You are gonna outperform. Right? Yep. And then the the second part, and this will be an issue for Google, I suspect, you want to attract the right talent. And it's not just about having a great brand like Google does and all the cool things done. You still want the right talent such as Bonnie. Yeah. And, you know, if you if you pay lip service to diversity inclusion, it's not gonna work. People you're hiring will see right through it. Yep.

100%. 100%. And that's why that's why I think, you know, we we need to be real about this. I I try and have discussions with people that are genuine. I try and talk about this in a way that we can easily understand each other. I I don't regurgitate textbook sort of DEI cliches that are out there. You know? Yeah. I I I refuse to do that because this is again, to me, this makes perfectly good business sense. And, you know, it's to me, it's a no brainer, but maybe I I see the world through my glasses. So That's right.

And one of the other issues I suspect is that in many well, certainly in New Zealand's experience, my experience in New Zealand and a little bit in Australia, DNI is something that HR leads. Yeah. Yeah. And but when I look at it, Google, from what you're talking about, it's every manager. It's all the leaders. You know, this is part of your DNA. It's not the person at HR executive leadership table going, here we go. We now need to do this. Is it? It it goes from the CEO to the intern and everyone in between.

I mean, it it it is everyone's responsibility to we're all stewards of our culture. Right? So, you know, to suggest that this is HR's thing, which a lot of companies do. Right? You know, HR will handle it. No. Yeah. We're we're all in fact, when I came and joined Google two years ago, I was blown away at how many different it was like it was like herding kittens. Right? We had every different group in the organization doing amazing stuff. I was like, no. And that's because they're empowered. People are empowered to do the right things in a culture that that values, you know, difference. And That's right. That's really cool.

Yeah. That is cool. So yeah. It it's just a massive opportunity. Diversity, equity, and inclusion is an opportunity. It's not a problem that needs to be solved.

Yeah. Now that's the quote of the day. It's an opportunity, not a problem, and that's how many organizations think about it. Now before you just peed on us, and I were just chatting on COVID and hybrid working. Mhmm. And part of me thinks it's reassuring that Google had the same problems going to hybrid working and with COVID. Except thinking about it, it'll be much worse because you had COVID across multiple workplaces throughout the world and, say, in New Zealand instances, you know, it's just one country to look at. So it would have been quite hard going to hybrid working, I suspect.

Yeah. I mean, hybrid work for listen. It's not just something that, affects Google. It affects all of us. Right? The the the playbook wasn't there 2.5 ago. Yeah. And I I remember twenty years ago trying to convince people that flexible work was a good thing, and then and it's part of how we do things. I was laughed at saying our shareholders will never allow people to work part time. Wow. The world has changed. But this is the next normal. Right? It's the next normal. So we need to adopt that that strategy of flexibility. Hybrid work has its challenge, you know, in terms of how people feel and and their sense of belonging. Mhmm. You know, case in point, I have a team where, you know, seven of us are are based in Singapore.

I have people from all over the the the region that are also part of the team. You know, some work remotely, whether it's from home or somewhere else. Others work in in other offices. And I'm conscious that when the the video conference ends and the rest of us get up and go to lunch together, there's this you know, there's a natural fear of missing out, the FOMO effect that that exists. Right? And as a leader, you have you have to sort of temper that. One one really cool thing that I saw was one of our leaders in in the region, one very senior leader, will go and find a a phone booth and take a a video conference there and actually extricate themselves from Wow. In because this person realizes that there are other people on on.

The the video conference that are solo, that are alone in a different in a different location. And so I think when we practice things like that, it's the little things that really make a difference. And hyper work, it's it's tough. Like I said, we're still we're still figuring it out. We're building the plane when we're flying it. Right? Yep. And, you know It sounds like that. Yeah. Going back going back to creating a brave space, sometimes we're gonna get it wrong. Sometimes, you know but if you if you listen to listen to everyone's voice, we'll get it better. Not necessarily right, but we'll get it better. Right? And so I think hybrid work, it's here to stay. Guess what? The days are, you know, nine to five.

Six days a week, or five days a week in office are long gone. I I personally, as a leader, I look for output, not FaceTime. Right? So I I don't clock people, you know, when they when they come in, when they leave, how much leave they take. You know, we have processes for all that, but, you know, if people if people are are respected and treated, fairly and with, with dignity, you know what? They're gonna give back in spades. So I think the hybrid work environment for us is a real opportunity. But I'm also you know? But it's.

It's it's different courses for different horses. Right? So me, personally, I'm calling in from home because I have I have an errand to run later on this afternoon, but I'm the type of person that loves to work in the office. And that's cool. Right? So there are some people that wanna be, and Google offices are incredible. Right? To me, that's part of the magic and that's part of the allure. For others, it's okay. It's not a judgment. It's it's, you know, you work where you are most productive. And you know what? I I think I think there's a nice sort of balance that needs to take place when when we look at hybrid.

And look, isn't it amazing what happens when you have respect and trust in the workplace? Because that's really what it's about. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Bonnie, just to go back to you, you joined Google during the pandemic, I think. And so what are the challenges and benefits personally of doing it at such an interesting time, shall we say, as a neurodiverse employee? I mean, how did you get through it?

I think it was hard just because it was in the first weeks of everyone going remote. No one had done it before. I was on a team that I haven't met in person before, and they were, again, lovely people. But I got to know them a better once we met face to face. And there was so much information to take in. So for me, it was hard because I hadn't really yet learned how to just learn everything in a way that didn't feel like working from a fire hose to use a Yep. Very good expression. But I think going navigating the work from home period and then navigating a transition to hybrid, Google has learned a lot about, as Brendan referenced, just embracing what works for everyone. Yep. Trusting people to know what's best for them.

And just enabling them to do the best work they can. And I think not just for not just for COVID, not just for neurodiverse employees. Everyone's different. Some people might have health conditions, which means they have a different risk profile. Some people Exactly. Are not here or see, for example. And it's really just about letting people do their best work and doing whatever needs to make that happen. And I think the transition to hybrid has taught us a lot about ways in which we can do that.

That's right. And I think it also is an opportunity to show what a true culture of belonging could achieve as well. Absolutely. Look, we have talked about some amazing things. So before we go, and thank you for your time, and thank you for allowing us to have a insight to Google for the second time. Let me I'm gonna ask one question. What is your final thought in respect to ADHD and belonging in Google? And I'll start with you, Roman. And then, Bonnie, I'll ask you to just add on the end as well. Yeah. What's your final message?

Yeah. Sure. I mean, the final message is, you know, be curious. Be curious. Be an ally. Look around you. If you think you know everything, you don't. But also, you know, give people some grace as well. We have dealt with two and a half years of a pandemic. We're dealing with, you know, raging wars. We're dealing with Yeah. Unthinkable atrocities that are happening in the world. So people are stressed right now. So I think that one thing and and particularly with with people who, are are neurodivergent, neurodiverse, like, we we can't see what's going on in somebody's mind. Right? We can't Yeah. You know, you see somebody with a cast on, you give them a break. You're not gonna expect them to run a marathon because they've got a broken leg.

But when you experience life differently or you have a different lived experience, we can be quick to judge. And I think maybe that's that's it. Don't be quick to judge. Yep. We can learn and and and support each other. I mean, that that's that's what we I think a little bit of kindness is something that we need more of in this world today. So, you know, I think I think this this summit that the conference that was put on, fantastic idea. Follow the sun, ADHD UK, ADHD New Zealand. I you know, you've got friends at Google now for life. It's just been a pleasure to be with all of you. And and to be honest, it's something it's it's the highlight of my year to to have been a part of this. So thank you again.

Oh, kapai. Thank you for that. And, Bonnie?

Yeah. I really like the be curious and be kind as a just a motto for life, really. My takeaway would be just to embrace difference. Embrace the way people like different things, are good at different things, are interested in different things Mhmm. And can bring different strengths to the table. It would be really boring if we were all the same. And so whether it's neurodivergence, anything else Mhmm. Yeah. That's that's a plus and not a minus.

And yeah.

Thank you again, Darren and Roman. It's it's been really fun to be part of this. Yeah. It's it's it's just magic.

And I wanna wrap up, and thank you so much. From a proverb that talking to you last time, I think really I think I understand it for the first time. It's very popular in Aotearoa, New Zealand. And it goes something like this. And that translates into to what is the most important thing in the world. It is people. It is people. It is people. I just that's exactly my message and what I hear from you guys. And I just can't I just can't hear enough how much I appreciate you giving us the time. It's a really big step forward and certainly a highlight of my year as well. So thank you so much. Thank you all.

That's really lovely then. Thank you.