Hello. Hello, Ben. Hey, Henry. How are doing? I am. How's going?

Yeah. We're only an hour twenty two. Wait till I get to twenty seven. I think that's when I start to flag and look tired. It's fortunately, ADHD Australia take over our night, so I do get to have a very sort of fitful sleep where I keep waking up with because I have received calls in the middle of the night going, we've got a problem. Yeah, tech is not working. Yeah, like, or a year ago, and this is public knowledge because it happened live, we got a call going, right. We hadn't realized we got our time difference wrong. We have a senator and we need to start an hour earlier. Like, oh my goodness. And then fortunately, we had a prerecord in that slot, so it's a really simple swafer. But.

They said I said, like, do but surely we have a problem in the morning as well? And they're like, no. No. We don't. You just, bring bring Henry's alarm at 05:30. Like, you know that you know, weigh your phone. If you think someone rings 3 times, it's like, must be important. Yes. Gonna ring. Yeah. 05:30, get this call going, okay. Yeah. You know when we said no problems about the morning? We do. So this has been easy. Right. Come on. We knew I need some wasting time of your valuable time. It's great, Henry. It's I'm so excited to talk to you. Like, so excited. You know, I Yeah, let's get on to questions so I just stop being an excited person. You were diagnosed. So we're going straight into about neurodivergence.

Yeah. And the reason is that we obviously talk around seed lip but I'm passionate about the path and I think people talk too often about later stage stuff where a lot of stuff has already been set in motion and actually for us and particularly people diagnosed late, it's like this is tough as and we're trying to work it out, and you are an absolute inspiration. So, look, you were diagnosed at 41. Be me by year. I was diagnosed at 42, not what it's like. And 42, Douglas Adams, meaning of life. Just saying. There you go. Why did you go? Why did you get the diagnosis?

It was a very slow, gradual process, actually. And I guess the the important piece of context is that my understand I'd never heard the word neurodiversity. And if I had, it definitely had passed me by. And my belief system around ADHD, autism, Tourette's, dyslexia, etcetera, is actually incredibly narrow, incredibly outdated, and just full of all the myths and the stereotypes and the stigma. And so it was where were we? Probably 2022. Guy I know in the drinks industry who I've always gotten well with was diagnosed autistic and ADHD. Kinda relate to sort of related to how his brain worked. Always got on with him. Admired him for kinda speaking up about it. And, yeah, that was fine. And then I was listening to a podcast with a neurodivergent.

Founder, started to relate a bit. It's probably a few months later. It was all very gradual, and I was kinda like, maybe. And, you know, I kind of remember googling. Yeah. I was really only sort of thinking about autism at this time. So I sort of googling, you know, autism test and did a few, did the NHS one, just the, you know, the sort of quick 10 questions, scored pretty highly, and then went straight back into kind of no chance, you know, denial. I can't be autistic, can I? And and then I rang up this guy, Ian, who was in the drinks industry, who'd been public about his ADHD and autism and and just said, fuck, man. I I like, what do you do? What do you do if you think you are? How do you know? How do you I've done some tests, and.

What should I do? And he said, go and talk to this clinic. Don't bother with if you wanna get on with it and you can afford it, don't, you know, don't go anywhere near the NHS. And so this was at a time when my wife was probably eight months pregnant with our third daughter. Not the most ideal timing to then be rallying off to kinda go and pursue some potentially self indulgent process to understand, you know, how my brain works. Anyway, I went I went for the assessment. I didn't tell my wife. I didn't actually tell anybody. No. No. So I was like, hold on. Regarded. I'm not sure who I'm not sure this is true. I don't know if I am, but I'm sort of down the lane now, so let's go and find out. And.

Yeah, only only an autism assessment to begin with. Was told at the end of a twelve week process, you know, congratulations, Ben. You're autistic. I believed it. It did change everything and nothing. Oh, nice phrasing. Yeah. Yeah. It really did change everything and nothing, but it gave me the answers to my life's questions about myself, I guess. And that was it's just massively empowering when somebody yeah. It's a bit like in a non I'm not talking in a medicalized way from an autism perspective, but you go to the doctor, you go to the vet, you go to a lawyer, you go to a accountant, you have a challenge, something's wrong, somebody tells you what that is, and we know it so well of, like, I'm just really glad I know.

You know? Just really glad I found out. And then it was probably six months later. So we're into 2023. And, yeah, I went for the ADHD assessment. And, again, that was just the sort of missing piece of the puzzle, but I can, yeah, I can categorically say that I am the kindest I've ever been to myself, and I am the most myself that I've ever been. And I fucking want that for every single person possible.

It's so I understand, you know, I obviously agree and that being able to be the most yourself. How do you explain to people who go, but surely you were you before? Like, because we say like a diagnosis doesn't change you because it's just the same information. It's just information about you. But, actually, it does make a huge difference. Yeah. How you how do you answer that? My.

Wife said that after I was assessed and then I obviously shared the news with my wife. And by the way, nobody was surprised. And so there was that sort of last to know kind of feeling, which was doubly magnified because I had next to no understanding or up to date information on what autism or ADHD are. So it was this double, like, wow. I really have been in the shadows. I really have been under some rock somewhere to not have any self awareness and also to then not have any societal consciousness of what's going on. And my my wife said that I started to and these were these are words with love, but they came out slightly wrong of, like I started to just be more autistic and act more autistic. And.

Obviously, that was part of me kind of, I guess, unmasking and and just sort of allowing myself to be my myself more. But I look back, and I kinda go, well, my brain has always operated in the the same way that it's operated, but externally and how I presented has has definitely been different. And I definitely grew up kind of understanding social etiquette, I e, you you look somebody in the eye when you talk to them. For example, it's a pithy simple thing, but you make eye contact. That is what you do. That is how you show someone respect and that you're listening. And now I don't feel like I have to do that, And nobody has ever said to me since not doing that, sorry. Are you listening to me? Or can you look me in the eye? Or, gosh. Bit.

Bit disrespectful when you kinda can't look me in the eye. So, yeah, I would say that my my brain has always been the best and worst thing about me, But just, yeah, how I've how how I've probably portrayed that externally has massively shifted, and I feel massively empowered now to just be myself, and not not have to of course, I still I still mask, and I still have to, you know, pull my big boy pants on and and do things that I don't want to do. But, yeah, I feel I feel far more comfortable or far more aware of.

When I am at my best and and what is not gonna serve me best. And that's a big deal. Right? Knowing knowing when you can play to your strengths, like knowing your strengths or not, and actually knowing the costs of the weaknesses of the masking, of doing things differently, going like this is, yeah, you were talking about eye contact. Was thinking struggle with it. Particular, what I struggle with is I get wildly distracted. So I like to try and look in the corner just so I can remember what the head it is I'm trying to say. Otherwise, just forget. I fall into the pools of your eyes. It's not true. I just literally just there's too much going on. I forget. You mentioned your wife.

In an amazing podcast. Your podcast is amazing, the Hidden 20%. Won awards, including for I think the interview I'm about to quote. And it's a spectacular thing, obviously highly recommended to all. She said, this sounds strange, but you being autistic really saved us. It really did, because I couldn't have done this on my own. What did she mean for that? What was Yeah. You're.

Gonna get me with comments like that, Henry. I have a brain that is really, really good at taking in lots and lots and lots and lots of information and untangling it and distilling it, no sort of pun intended, and making it really, really simple. And Yeah. My brain, I've learned is you know, it can be incredibly strategic, logical. I see lots of blueprints. I can join lots of seemingly disparate dots or concepts together, make sense of them. And we had a, yeah, a very big legal case, very big personal legal case with my wife, and I just absolutely bossed it. Oh, Henry's gone.

Oh, no. I'm still here. I was bringing up a quote. Bastard. I just was trying not to be distracted. It was like, clearly, like Don't worry. I know. I I you know, it was it was.

You know, analyzing huge amounts of data and figuring out, yeah, figuring out plans and strategies and arguments and all. Like, I 'd yeah. It was it was I was made to do that kind of stuff. And it's the same with you know, I I I'm I love I do love massive, complex, complicated challenges and breaking them down and working them through and, you know, case in point, the whole neurodiversity aspect. You know, of course, I didn't pick just autism or just ADHD. We're going for the whole thing, and I wanna figure it out. And I've built some of that muscle from taking on the $2,500,000,000,000 industry with and and nonalc and changing perception and.

Lighting a fire to spread a kind of global movement, you know, that's now a sort of multi, multibillion dollar category. And, so, yeah, I I feel if I hadn't been diagnosed and I didn't know how my brain worked, I wouldn't well, obviously, I wouldn't have started the charity and the podcast. But, yeah, I wouldn't have have lent into, like, trying to really harness what my brain's best at.

You built, the story starts, obviously, before your diagnosis. So you actually, wait, I'll just scroll back. The quote from your wife saying being autistic really saved us. She talking about the legal case or is she talking about the legal case? Yeah. Thank you. Story starts before your diagnosis, right? And I mean, it's very clear it was tough being Ben. Could you and that your exact story isn't the same for every neurodivergent person, but it being tough is very common. Could you talk to people, share with people that that journey up, like what school was like then, what happened and.

Yeah. I mean, I I yeah. I think we we say this on the sort of front page of the in 20% website that after I was diagnosed, I I went straight into kind of research mode and wanted to know everything there was to know about autism and about ADHD specifically. And, of course, I I found the the two sides of the coin, the the dreadful, horrific statistics of which, you know, addiction, abuse, trauma, homelessness, prison. I I'm I'm in all of those. Right? I've ticked all of those. Suicide attempts. I've like, I'm I was there in the statistics of what happens when you don't diagnose and support. Right?

And then I found the other the flip side of all the kind of my heroes and the amazing contributions that that brains like ours have have made to the world and ultimately started the charity to try and close that gap and and and tell the truth. But, yeah, I mean, I saw my, you know, I saw my first psychiatrist when I was, what, eight. Lots of what I would now be able to describe as as meltdowns and self harming meltdowns, always involving windows for some reason and smashing them, which landed me in a lot of trouble both with police and exclusion and hospital. And then I I ultimately I didn't get my first proper job until I was 25. And, yeah, I've had a very I had a very colorful kind of dreadful, colorful period between leaving school and.

Actually turning my life turning my life around. And I've met lots of you know? I've been around the world. I've met lots of people from lots of different walks of life. I've been in in and out of rehab section twice. Yeah. Lot lots of lots of real, like, resilient building, character building, worldview kind of, yeah, experiences. And, ultimately, between the sort of age of 25 and now, I've just channeled that destructive energy into trying to improve my life. And it's literally like it's not as simplistic as changing tracks on a train, but I think we know as certainly as ADHD is, like, there is a lot of fight, drive, energy, and that can be good and bad. And, yeah, I'm now trying to put that put that energy towards good instead of.

Trying to destroy myself. So, yeah, I I kind of I guess, I I, you know, I I went to boarding school when I was seven, and I wouldn't probably wish that on anybody. And school, I was very fortunate because I was very good at sport, and I was very good academically. And so whilst I didn't have best friends and and, because I was in sport teams, I was I was sort of, quote, unquote, popular. And because I was good academically, you know, I I could kind of get away with being naughty, but I was that naughty little white boy that is the absolute ADHD, completely outdated stereotype. And yet, I you know, of all the psychiatrists, counselors, therapists, psychologists, rehab, sectioning, hospitals, etcetera.

That I've been to in the first twenty five years of my life, never ever ever ever did anyone ever say anything about ADHD. And, of course, you know, this was all happening preadults being able to be assessed for ADHD, pre, you know, ADHD and autism coming in, but, yeah, never. And so I can absolutely I can kind of really clearly see how just missed so many people have been. So missed. And I don't regret anything, and I don't wish it was different in my experience because, again, that's just, I don't know, not not logical. But I do we have to break the cycle. And I've got three daughters, and their generation and generations to come, it's gonna be different.

We talked to yeah, and obviously we're campaigning, like, that's who you do, your work and us in ADHD UK. That's the goal, right, to change, improve the future. We talk to a lot of people who have addiction issues. There is a high likelihood for people with ADHD there is a high probability. But actually, when we look at some of the limited addiction research that's been done, what you find, and so this is some research from gambling, is that in gambling, the propensity to gamble is the same. The likelihood to be in the category of disaster is much, much higher. And lot of people with ADHD find themselves either the well, the root causes, I don't think, with life being very difficult and some self medicating, some.

Causing awful circumstances, many different routes to addiction. So what's your advice to and how did you stop being how did you I know that's the wrong phrasing no longer become dependent drugs? And what's your advice to people who are in that situation? Yeah. It's ADHD in autism.

Yeah. It's an interesting one because I and I'm right at the beginning of this sort of thinking, Henry, and it's backed up by absolutely nothing currently. So that is my big qualifier here. But my hunch, my gut, deep down in my gut feel is that addiction is a symptom of unrecognized neurodivergence. That's my big thought. And I would love to be proven right, wrong, etcetera, because I just I just yeah. I and I guess I've got my own experience, but it it doesn't matter. It it's not about what's the drug. Is it gambling, sex, any you know, alcohol, what are it they also are symptomatic. Right? I could be addicted to anything that was gonna change the way I feel and that was gonna allow me to escape from.

Sitting with myself and and being in my own head. And so drugs are not the problem. Alcohol is not the problem. Gambling is not the problem. It it's it's within our psyche. Not that that's a problem, but it it it feels like it's common sense to kinda go, but it's something within our psyche. And I don't and, Henry, I haven't I haven't done the research on this. I don't have the data. I've got zero evidence. No proof. But I just I got a feeling.

I I think there's no we we know from the data, that there is this high propensity. I think that we've got a problem that there's so many undiagnosed. When you're looking trying to segment across, it's very hard to go, this is the non ADHD audience versus the ADHD or this neurodivergent audience versus non. And it's one of the things, obviously, we want.

But, for example, Henry, and I'm I'm Yeah. But the evidence is very clear. Trying to get into a solution mode here. But, you know, the the rehabilitation centers that are focused around helping people around addiction. I don't know what the whether there's neurodivergent screening, etcetera.

I don't know. But I do know No. No. They're like, you know, there is there there is not on the NHS, like, because they just go, oh, we'll give you a referral.' And they're like, see you in five years.' Like it's just And actually I was speaking to an addiction service provider to the NHS and they said that the current structure is awful and it's particularly awful for ADHD. So if you do not turn up to your addiction session, you are automatically and immediately dropped. And, you know, with people with ADHD, like, commonly struggling with time and organisation. And this assumption that it's because we therefore don't care about the treatment and therefore should be dropped is just wrong. But it's systemic.

Like it's actually part of the, as I answered it from then, part of the NHS guidance. And so it is actually almost worse than not having the screening, the review. It's actually creating rehabilitation support systems that are actively more.

Awful and difficult for neurodivergent people. Yep. I mean, there's some amazing work going on around eating disorders and autism. People like Francesca and Alison that looks that yeah. Getting stuck into that. I'm not saying eating disorders don't exist. But, yeah, I just No.

There was some research, this was something that I've seen. I'm trying to remember the person who made it more public. Did a TV program on it, but where the research showed that fifty percent of the people hospitalized due to anorexia had autism.

Yeah.

It's really They really created a diet that found the problem was not eating, the problem was what was being asked to eat and making it more compatible changed everything. I thought I oversimplified, but they they I'm gonna quote the professor. She said we made the orange diet, like the beige diet, she said. Yeah. And it made a huge difference for a large group of people and they didn't actually have an eating disorder. Well, did, but they didn't because the real issue was autism. Again, you you feel like those moments, read the story of the person who first discovered insulin and they injected the the patients and they just literally came alive again. That's a.

Change. And you've got this fundamental knowledge change happening where suddenly a whole lot of people who are extraordinarily ill just actually aren't ill. Yeah. Yeah. And.

But look. Addiction that I I've grown up being educated, I guess, on addiction being genetic, for example. Right? And there being a genetic component.

And so, yeah, that it's little I presume it's the underlying bit. The fact is the genetic component's neurodivergent. Like.

I yeah. Anyone listening that is works in this space or yeah. Just I really feel like that's and I don't have the numbers on cost to the NHS of addiction, etcetera, etcetera. But I can tell you, I can imagine there's a huge economic kind of impact and potential opportunity on the flip side.

I mean, this is an argument we're trying to make, but the lack of data being a massive problem. And, you know, at the moment, as we've I know you were listening in on the earlier session, this problem that we see elements of government thinking of neurodivergent assessments as solely as a cost not seeing that economic benefit that you change people's lives, they can then thrive, they become improve their careers, they pay more tax, it changes everything. It's not only a moral argument to do, because it's the right thing to do, but it's an economic argument. It's a win win. It is it is a win win. I do you think the hardships in your life have some root in your neurodivergence? I think you've touched to this, but specifically.

Yeah. I do. I don't know that would it have been the things that have happened in my life where they've been very traumatic or bad? There is definitely a link with actually, on on both sides of sort of being more vulnerable or easily manipulated from an autism perspective and being incredibly risk averse and impulsive from an ADHD perspective. Both of both aspects of have absolutely Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Caused some caused some trouble. Would it and and I don't even bother with the and what if I'd known. I kind of I haven't really even entertained that. That seems like that seems inefficient to do that.

The when people no. I I hear you in that. Ability to look forward, I think, is a wonderful thing. Certainly, when people are first diagnosed, they tend to talk about having three core emotions. One is anger for how hard it's been. Mhmm. And the other is peace. Is that that makes sense? That explains so much. Yep. And the third is joy. For like how the future can now be. I can be more me, be achieve because I know myself so much better. Advice to every entrepreneur is know yourself. And if you don't have an understanding of that you're neurodivergent, you struggle to know yourself. It's sometimes when you ask people like, would you do things differently? You get a different you you get a different question answered. So they'll say no.

And the question they're really answering is, are you happy now? Exactly. And, you know, I and my journey has been hard. And I have a wonderful wife and two kids and I would do all of that again to make sure I get this. Yeah. But it's not to say that if I did do it all again, I haven't learned some shortcuts. There aren't a lot of dead alleys that I went down that I wouldn't go down again. Yeah. I've learned so much about myself and into my life.

Yeah. And I wouldn't you know, it's it's it is literally and specifically because of seed lip. So I don't think I would've I think I wouldn't have done seed lip if I wasn't autistic and ADHD. It's my very strong belief because it's part of how my brain works. And specifically because of seed lip, you know, I I had a girlfriend when I was 20, and she was the one that got away. And we lost touch, and she moved to China. And I was amidst the the chaos anyway. And then because of, we remit, And, she's now my wife and the mother of our three children. And so, yeah, I wouldn't it's just how it's meant to have been. I wouldn't I wouldn't change any of that, yeah, for anything.

This question sounds a little trice, but isn't I think followed on for that. No, I think I know the answer to the first one, but I don't know the answer to the second. So the first one is, you happy now? Yes. And the second is, when have you been happy in your life outside of now?

It's funny. I I just had a thought, and I did do this a lot at the beginning of kind of going, oh, is that what's autism and what's ADHD? And is that being autistic? And is that being you know, constantly analyzing everything. And so you telling me, am I happy now? I take very literally of, like, right here, right now at 12:38, I am happy. Thank you, Henry. On Monday, for last Monday most Mondays, I just wanna close the whole fucking business down, the charity down. Everything's rubbish. Can't deal with the transition between the weekend and start of the working week. Anyway That's interesting. Yeah. I find that. Yeah. I'm going for overall average over a sort of Yeah. If if we're doing a we're doing a a a moving average.

But, like, I love that. Thank you for sharing that. No. But somebody somebody said to me.

About twenty, yeah, twenty years ago, if you put half the effort into bettering your life as you have into destroying your life, you will be absolutely amazed, and I am absolutely amazed. I feel very, very lucky.

And in that sort of overall happiness, like, when else have you been happy in your life?

I'm always happy outside. So I'm if I think back to sort of, you know, childhood and growing up, all my memories are outside. And, usually, those memories are moving. Right? So it's, I don't know, running in a field. It's climbing a tree. It's building a football goal. It's building a skateboard ramp. It's riding a pony. It's kind of a lot of or it's on the rugby field, on the cricket field, on the hockey field. And, yeah, that's that freedom, I think, is that sort of freedom and fresh air. Yeah. I I I think was was and still is, like, when I, yeah, when I sort of feel most at peace.

Awesome. Thank you. That's that's fair. And do you do like, I know you're also an advocate for farming. Do you spend much time outside now?

I do. I mean, I you know, I don't know if you can see, Henry. There's my view. Oh my goodness. That is my honest view. So, yeah, I'm I'm sat in our distillery at the moment. And Oh, I know. Yeah. I'm you know, when you've got children and the outdoors and nature, yeah, that that's immensely powerful. And so, yeah, I do as much as I can to kind of get the kids outside, be outside. Yeah. We've got fair few animals here. Yeah. I'm really I do kinda love animals and plants and trees probably more than humans most of the time, if I'm honest.

I am if I look oh, you should not tell the story, but I'm going to. If I look up, there's a ceiling lamp and it has a very odd pattern on which is made of parakeet shit. Okay. And it's because we had some parakeets get abandoned in our attic and we then adopted the were abandoned, so we fed them up. We also have a cat. Parakeets lived in here. And they have flown the nest. But there was a period where they were flapping around here, including a really delightful meeting that I hadn't been able to get them. They got better and better at not getting caught and getting put back in their cage. I couldn't get them back in, so I did I've had to meet with some quite senior. And about two thirds of the way through, a parakeet landed on my head.

I just had to explain.

They're so noisy though, Henry. How do you deal with the noise?

They well, in that environment, they only were noisy when I started talking.

Okay.

Which was extremely they had to go they at that stage, had to go, and they've temporarily outside. Then they were outside in an errand after a couple weeks, weeks, and we still see them, so we feed them still. Brilliant. Just to help them along their way. Right. Story along. We've to talk about seed lip. Yeah. For reasons. I've been really kind of obsessed about neurodivergence in here. Who'd have thought it? For those who don't know, so I'm going do a quick summary and correct me if I go wrong. C Dip is a non alcoholic botanical spirit style of drink founded in 2015 inspired by a 300 year old family heritage and a family design background.

Your discovery of the seventeenth century book on herbal distillation and born out of frustration of sugary mocktails when not drinking alcohol. You'd experimented with copper pot stills and botanicals from your own garden, launching seedless spice 94 at Selfridges, first thousand bottles sold out in three weeks in and a few weeks and providing demand, showing proving demand, and then got traction in top bars and restaurants, selling it to Diageo for majority second twenty nineteen. And it's the global leader in premium alcoholic, alcohol free spirit cell drinks, is an enormous achievement. Absolutely. You obviously get told this a lot, like it's amazing and just very special and actually very important to.

A lot of neurodivergent people do not drink because struggles and maybe, sort of addiction, maybe just struggles with general interests. And so having something that you can drink that isn't a silly sugary mocktail is a big deal. Questions. Straight back into the neurodivergence. Do you think your neurodivergence has helped or hindered you in in your CBIP journey? And I have a very specific question, which I have to say I hate doing this when people add two together know. And then I forget Always. Like I properly hate it, but I'm still doing it. I think something that can be a massive problem is a neurodivergent issue based in neurodivergence that's a proper block that you struggle with.

And that that can actually see you actually can see founders defounded, like, because they're like, you can't do this. You know, I just can't do this specific thing, and I don't quite I don't know why, but I'm having a massive problem. And people just going, well, you're you if you can't do that, you must be useless. Or or or reducing your value in self and self withdrawing. So I'd interested if you had some specific issues. So, like, neurodivergent, HELPWAHINDER, and the specific issue, god, there's three. It's even worse than I thought. So we'll take them one at a time, Henry, so you can remind us. And look. I love you see him writing them down. It's exactly like I I have things here. It's right strategy.

So help help or hinder, an interesting one because, you know, c lip I started mucking around in my kitchen in 2013. It took two years to launch.

Yeah. It's one of those overnight successes that took a long time. Yeah. And then.

Throughout no point in that journey did I know that I was autistic or ADHD. But interestingly, I managed to I I think I'd obviously, I u used my my brain to figure out, you know, production process and blend of ingredients and, a strategy for how to, yeah, make non alk options credible and interesting and delicious and adult. And then with the help of an amazing team, take that to, you know, 35 countries in in, like, three years. And change and this is where I think it's most important to neurodiversity is I feel like there is a lot of similarities in terms of stigma and social norms and all the rest of it between nonalcoholic drinks and neurodiversity. There are parallels, and and that, I think, for us as a charity.

Stands us in in hopefully good stead. They also both begin with n as well, which I like. So, yeah, I do. I think it you know, I I didn't come from the drinks industry, so doing it differently, coming at it from a different kind of angle has definitely would definitely help and definitely part of my brain. I seem to attract now on reflection, actually, quite a neurodivergent led team, of people, which is interesting. And we did things differently. We didn't do any internal email. You know, I haven't done any internal emails for nearly ten years now. We don't with our current drinks businesses, with the charity. No internal email. No WhatsApp groups, which is amazingly efficient when we run everything on Slack.

And email is there for the outside world, our customers. Okay. Yeah. That definitely, part of what I thinking, wait. I emailed you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Emails for the outside world.

Wow.

But it yeah. I did everything like looking into.

Everyone who cc'd on all those emails with, like, 50 people that they don't need to read is currently looking at this going, oh my god. So inefficient.

I mean, you know, least meetings possible and lots of good, like, five sentence golden rule for emails and doing a lot of work with the team around how do you win the inbox. Inboxes and emails are competitions. How are you going to get read first, answered first, and make it so clear, simple, and easy for somebody to respond to your email? Because we all know the paragraph emails where you kinda go, oh, fuck it. I'll look at that later because someone's just made a really simple request that I can easily email back. So, like, sweating, like, all the little details, and I kinda feel like being autistic, I can get I wanna get into the minutiae. And I love a spreadsheet, and I love the numbers. And then being ADHD, I wanna kind of.

Just make things efficient and get on with them and take action and hustle and make stuff happen. So, yeah, definitely a definitely a help. Definitely also on reflection, Henry, a massive hinder. You know, I would I did a lot of traveling, and I'm a very anxious traveler. And I would get on a plane and start crying. I'd get back on the plane and start crying. I had to do a lot of socializing. I had to do a lot of what I would call in the nicest possible way performing. Yeah. And, yeah, that was that was a lot. That's that that definitely, you know, burnt me out a number of times. And I go on these, you know, big trips that would only be ten days, but I do seven countries. You know, it was madness.

I Well, that makes I can see how that makes sense because you're like, this is gonna be horrible. Yeah. I'm just gonna go I'm doing like, let me end enter the pit.

Exactly. Let me do it for the shortest amount of time. So I've got you know, I'm off to New York next week, and I've got sort of five day trip. And, like, I know how to do these. I've done so many of these kinds of trips before, and this is for our new drinks projects. But I'm also standing on a stage at a conference talking about seed lip, and I know it's all just high anxiety. And so before, I would have come back and gone straight into meetings. Now I have a rest day when I come back, and I have a choir today before I go. And so it's just, you know, those little things that can be done, I think to, yeah, to help. I feel like now, you know, the charity is a fully neurodivergent team. My drinks business is a mixture.

But I, yeah, definitely have carried on the same vein of I 100% start from trust with anyone that I work with. That might be about you know, it's not always served me well, but I treat it like an adult. I believe I've made the right decision hiring you or working with you. Why wouldn't I start from a 100% trust? And then I also kind of I don't care where and when you work and how you do it. Whatever works for you as long as the results are good. That's the other kind of contract, I guess. What was the second question, Henry?

Where you found yourself hitting a block?

Yeah. I mean, the the traveling and the socializing, you know, I'm I do not Oh, wow. I do not really socialize in my personal life. I do not have friends. I don't have a kind of nonprofessional I've got lots of people that I know, lots of people that I like, but not people that I would kinda call friends per se and definitely not in my personal life. And so, yeah, the the kind of public bit and, you know, press and talking and all that kind of, you know, bars, restaurants, hotels, buyers. Mhmm. Yeah. That that is that's pretty exhausting. And when you do that ten days in a row now if you ask me to do that for three days in a row, I'd say no way.

And so, yeah, I was doing, like, over two hundred days out of The UK a year, three years in a row. And Wow. By the time, you know, by the time CLIP got to its majority exit in 2019, you know, we had I'd kinda done five and a half years in total from right from the beginning, And it had been, obviously, really relentless. We had three offices around the world and big team. Had been I was I was not in a good way. You know? I was really burnt out. I was really grateful that, you know, we we did the deal with Diageo on the 08/07/2019 and on the August 16. Big things seem to happen, basically, around my daughter's being born because nine days after the deal was done, our second daughter was born. And then I took seven months paternity leave and.

Actually just seven months healing, really, and sort of time away from the business. And then I joined March 2020, and then three weeks later, COVID. So a really wild time. But, yeah, I I I think the biggest the biggest challenge has been energy levels and socializing. And I only imagine, like, you know, drinks.

Events being and drink selling, like, being in the house. Like Yeah. Like, just all the all the time.

It's a very sociable industry, and I love the industry, and I love hospitality. And there's nothing better than an amazing hotel bar or a fantastic restaurant.