Tania is one of the driving force of neurodiverse senses of excellence. And her first question is what exactly is that? So we'll we'll get on to but it is a special part of recruiting exclusively neurodivergent people and giving them an environment in which to thrive. So this is this is really creating something for for people to to allow them to succeed and for Ian and Ian White to to benefit from it. So she knows about hiring neurodivergent people. She knows about the adjustments that are needed. She has now started her own consultancy, PEG Squared, which advises organizations on how they can build their own neurodiverse and neuro inclusive workplaces, leveraging her knowledge from the running the neurodiversity program there.

This is a chat format again, so into questions from from me. And point at which I like and this time I have got them up at the time. Right. I am gonna bring in Tania. Hello. Hello.

Thank you so much for having me and for that lovely introduction.

Well, like, this is yeah. Just literally saying what you did. Like, you're quite extraordinary. And, like, I think, you know, so many of us have conversations with their workplace and trying to look to make changes, and you are the absolute depth of knowledge on that in at a completely different level.

Thank you.

We did have a kickoff question, which was what is an E and Y neurodiversity center access? What what the hell is it? Yeah. It's a brilliant question.

And one I probably three years ago. So nine years ago, set up a it was an autism at work hiring program initially. And the global leader who, leads the neurodivergent centers of excellence globally, a person called here in Shukla, he recognized that actually it wasn't just those that are autistic that potentially needed some support within the workplace. So broadened it out to neurodiversity, and it it grew globally, to over 500 plus people throughout the globe in those nine years. And I was responsible for building UK Manchester Neurodivergent Excellence. What it is is basically about opportunity creation. So how can you support those that wouldn't get through that traditional recruitment process to come into And.

Then once they are in the organization, how do you make sure that they have the support that they need in order to thrive within the organization? So it was all about creating a safe space. So if you think about it, if you're neurodivergent, it is incredibly challenging to talk about or to disclose to a potential employer, that you are neurodivergent, and it takes that barrier away. So you don't need to disclose because you are being recruited into this neurodivergent neurodiverse center of excellence. It was unique in the fact that we talk about, I guess, extended support. That doesn't mean that everybody that joined the NCOE required an element of extended support. They absolutely did not. But what this team had that other teams didn't.

Was a dedicated line manager who really understood neurodiversity, who had experience of managing those that were neurodivergent in the past and how to set up that environment for those individuals to thrive. There was a business reason we were doing this. It wasn't simply a case of doing the right thing. It absolutely is doing the right thing, but there was a there there still will be, and there will continue to be a shortage of talent in the tech space. And we were specifically recruiting into data analytics and data science roles within The UK. And what was really interesting was that, the team that we did bring in, they all had incredibly different skill sets. So you would have those that were brilliant at visualizing data.

You could have those in the team that were really happy to spend time in deep code doing machine learning, things that I'm my brain will never understand. And then there are others within that team who were absolutely exceptional at understanding the business context. So the why as to to what we were doing and why that was important to the business. So, despite the fact we were recruiting for technology roles, the breadth of experience and skills those individuals brought into the team were very different.

You said initial hiring was very much focused on individuals with autism. And we're in ADHD Conference where first noting that it's roughly forty percent of people with autism have ADHD. So we have a large cohort. But how did that change? Because I believe that changed and how is then ADHD individuals involved.

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think this is why the neurodivergent center of excellence was different is because a lot of people when you talk about employability programs, you talk about autism at work programs. And there is there is an ADHD at work program or dyslexia at work program, but actually genuinely broadened it out. And if I look back at the team that we hired, there wasn't anybody in the team that just had autism. So you had those that were severely dyslexic, you had those that had multiple co occurrences, late diagnosed individuals. So females, males, it it was a real range in terms of the the both the neurotypes that they brought to the team, but also the skill sets that they brought to that team as well.

Yeah. That's and the actual term neurodiversity and neurodivergence coming initially from the autistic community and widening out. And it sounds like you and I took that same same path. And I've actually always this is a deep dive into understanding that word and sort of learning that the main genesis was the idea that neurodivergent people are people who experience the world in a different way than than people who are not. And and that then meaning that they do do things differently, expect and and have challenges, but they are experiencing the world fundamentally differently. I have to say that when I learned that, it really little cog went for me. It was like, that makes sense. It makes sense.

Also makes sense why so much advice doesn't work for me because like my world is is different. I think it's nice to hear. It's important to know that we are talking about neurodivergence and more widely in ADHD. And I think you talked to me previously saying there was a pretty high percentage of ADHD individuals. You you know, when we met previously, you spoke that alongside neurodivergence, you had to deal with a lot of significant prior workplace trauma.

Could you talk to that a bit? Yeah. No. Absolutely. And and let's let's be really honest about this. There's there's no way to sugarcoat it. That if employers do not understand neurodiversity and someone behaves in a way that is different to the to the norm, it's really challenging. It's challenging for the individual. It's challenging for the the line manager to deal with that as well. And as a result, it came as no surprise that those that had roles previously had challenges in relation to, how they were perceived in the workplace. And as you said, it's a neurotypical workplace. It's like I have an ADHD brain myself and sometimes that workplace that has been built not for my brain can be quite challenging.

And there are ways that I might react or behave that that people might go, oh, that's a bit that's a bit strange. And I'm I'm sure I'll come on to a little bit more about that a bit a bit later. But when you have experienced prior workplace trauma and you're coming into an environment, and I've said from the outset here, this was about actually don't need to disclose because you're coming into a neurodiverse center of excellence, but people still need to rebuild trust with organizations.

And that can be incredibly challenging for him for some people depending on the the environments they come from. So even when we were saying we will support you, we will do everything we possibly can, there was still a misbelief that we would as an organization. And and people genuinely didn't believe we meant it. And at times, they they challenged us and they pushed us to a point to say, actually, do you do you mean this? Are you gonna give us what we need? Because they had come through it from environments that they genuinely had, not had the best time. So building trust, rebuilding confidence in workplace is an absolute necessity. And I think yeah. It it I think.

Anybody that's hiring anybody that's neurodivergent into the workplace needs to bear that in mind that somebody might come in going, yeah. Do you really mean this?

I thought when you said, like, one of the most common issues we have was that the challenge of dealing with prior workplace trauma and reactions that you're not expecting workplace situations related to what's happened to them in the past, It was one of those moments where I was like, that is both really sad and completely not a surprise. Right? But I think having that awareness so that you can then help someone manage it is a big deal. You did very good. You also queued very credit because we are gonna talk about the impact of emotional dysregulation and and outbursts, which a workplace can be extremely intolerant of. Mhmm. And the fact that you you know I weren't and how you talked to that. We I think it was you you're talking about.

Hiring and hiring confidently, and it pops into my head, the disability confident program. And I think it's worth telling people that organizations that do that, if you have a disability and you meet the base criteria for the job, you are guaranteed an interview. And it's well worth being aware of that. So where you see that if you're an individual with ADHD, you have a qualifying condition in your ADHD. It's yeah. So it's it's something to think about. But, obviously, you know, at the same time, you are working out that that discussion. I'm going am I gonna disclose or not? I don't wish it all, I think. But hopefully, a disability confidence. But you do get that interview, and that might be worth it. Right. Back to you. And questions.

Okay. This is like this is probably a pretty big one for most people watching, like, how do you go setting up adjustments? Like, most people, they go to their boss. They go, hey. Look. I've recently got a diagnosis of ADHD. Like, you know, can we talk about it? Like, I'd like, you know, talk about what can be done to to support me. And they could look back at you really nicely and they go, oh, wow. Okay. How can I help? You know, like, I don't know why you're looking at I don't know why you're looking at me. Like, why do you think I know? I'm like, I don't know. This is new to me too. Like, I hope you know. And I'm like, so how do you do it? Like, how do go about setting up adjustments? Yeah. You're you're absolutely right.

And I think it is often the blind leading the blind when it comes to the adjustment process, particularly if you're late diagnosed, when you genuinely have have survived for a number of years without any adjustments in place. So adjustments for me, what was really interesting with with my team is that not all of them wanted any adjustments, and that's absolutely fine. But I was really keen that people were empowered to be able to really clearly articulate not only the challenges that they might have in the workplace, but also the strengths that they brought to the workplace. Because actually that's really useful information for me as an employer in terms of what are the things that you love to do.

Because by knowing what you love to do, I'm able to think about, okay, what tasks do we have in the in the team that mean that you can be aligned to those? And also let's remember having that ability to almost balance it saying, I'm I find this challenging, but actually these are things I can do really well, makes that conversation slightly easier. It's it's really hard to ask for help. It's like who turns up on the first day of their job and sits there and goes, oh, by the way, can I just give you all of a list of all the things I can't do very well? It's like, who it's just so hard to be able to sit down and ask for help. So I was super keen that, we.

Gave some some support to the team to help them navigate that. So what are the challenges that that they might face in the workplace, particularly if you're brand new at the university, which some of us weren't, not everybody was. But at the same time, but what what are the strengths? So we actually run a group coaching program, which had some success. I'm not gonna say it was a complete success, but you learn from these things. But one of the things we did ask people to do was a strengths finder tool, a neurodiversity specific one. For some, it reaffirmed what they already knew, which is fantastic. But for others, it it gave them some suggestions as to how how they might want to navigate the workplace.

And I think this is really important is is actually one of the biggest when you're when you're thinking about adjustments, one of the biggest challenges you have is being able to articulate what are the things you actually need help with. It's also really important to note that when you're talking about adjustments, some of them don't work consistently all of the time. So with my ADHD, it impact is impacted by the amount of stress I'm under, what else is going on in my life, and some days one thing that works might not work the next day. So when you are thinking about adjustments, it's about thinking about a toolkit of adjustments that might potentially support. So being able to put something up and pick something up and put it down again.

As opposed to just having right. You are gonna get a piece of technology. That's it. Done. Line in the sand. We're not gonna talk about this again. That's super important. Iterating. Is this working? Is it not working? If it's not working, what else can we try? So being able to have that conversation, with a a line manager until you get to a point where you're like, actually, do you know I now feel like I have I have this toolkit of adjustments that can help me within the workplace. So, yeah, it's it's about not expecting to have all of the answers on day one, but having a really trusting relationship with a manager where you can work for work through it.

That answer encapsulates a lot of like, there's a lot of hurdles that need oh, I think it'd be useful to talk to positively, which is like a lot of people when they're talking about adjustments, the perspective of the boss and perhaps themselves is that this is a one hit wonder. We go in, we chat, we're done, boom. And it's just not realistic. You talked to that so eloquently. You just like went straight to something it's very unlikely something's always gonna work. Like and so that that you know, some things don't work every day and that you need this sort of toolkit approach, but you also just then talked about the the need to evolve it. Yes. Yeah. It's a.

Yeah. I think this is a really big it's an important takeaway for people. So when if they're thinking about their own adjustments. And and the way we sometimes talk about is just to say, no. People you know, everyone's a unique individual plus ADHD. We're complex beings as as human beings. And so, you know, we'll put in some adjustments, but that will make differences elsewhere. And you'll then be able to go right with that working there and doing then this actually is something where I need to do work and that's gonna help you evolve and continue. I also thought it was wonderful when you talk to like.

Not only the weaknesses because it's awful. Everyone else goes to their boss and goes, I just want to remind you, like, I just want to tell you, I am great. Like, I I just wanna tell you about this and this. I did these do great things and, like, super. And you want me to go up and go, right. Like, okay. We need to talk about this and this and this where I am having huge trouble at. And, there's, you know, person over there just happily swanning off, having told their best bits, and you're swanning up going home to tell your worst bits. It's just a terrible disparity. Yeah. It's a big it's a it is really tough. You talked about a few sort of particular physical adjustments in technology. Do you wanna talk to some of the things you found.

Were often in that toolkit?

Yeah. No. Absolutely. I think when people think about adjustments, they instantly go to physical adjustments and technology related adjustments. So a piece of, I don't know, read write software or noise cancelling headphones, having a a desk that is yours within the office space. But actually, when you're talking about neurodiversity, it is it is broader than that. It is the ways of working that help more so than actually having a piece of equipment, not necessarily more so, but do help as well as having a piece of equipment or having a physical space that you can go to or a quiet room that is is there in the office. So thinking about, like, the way you organize your time or the way you communicate. So there are a couple of things.

That that we did, or that I I do now even. So if you think about, having an agenda upfront. So one of the things that people might find challenging about looking at it, if they get an agenda in the first place before a meeting, they may not do. But then when you look at an agenda, it's like, what is the expectation of me as a result of seeing all of these words in a piece of paper? Am I coming to listen? Are you wanting me to input? So is there a way that you can expand your agendas out to say, actually, these are the items that you're gonna be listening to, and this is what is expected as a result from each of the topics. So I did a piece of training recently, and I split the agenda up, and it was like.

For this piece, you need to listen. For this piece, you need to participate if you want to, and that participation will look like this. So what you're doing is you're giving people the opportunity to prepare, and not be surprised, within, meetings or or training, etcetera. The other, example I can think of is that sometimes and we had this situation. I had a really important meeting where I needed to get everybody back on the same page. So people were, disappearing off in different directions, and that's fine. That happens in organizations sometimes. And what we wanted to do is go, right. I want everybody in the room to feel heard. So I want everybody to have the opportunity to speak. So what I did is I prepared a set of questions.

And I asked a question, and then I literally paused for sixty seconds. And I told everybody this is also what was gonna happen. They were all gonna get sixty seconds to think about how they might want to respond to that to that question. And then I went round the room and I and then I interned and say, right, would you now like to respond to the question that's just been asked? And what was what was happening as a result of doing it that way is people genuinely felt like they were being heard, and they had the time to think before they had to react as well. And it worked it worked really well. I think people can sometimes be afraid of silence. I've spent most of my life interviewing people.

Ask a question. You often sit there if the other person's thinking, I know I've done it in the past. Hopefully, I don't do it anymore. But I'll feel that that pause that they need in order to get their thoughts by reframing the question or asking a slightly different question that was the same question because silence feels awkward. But actually, when you're dealing with somebody who's neurodivergent, silence is sometimes the best thing that you can give that person in order for them to to collect their thoughts.

Yeah. I I was so tempted just so I'd leave you quietly. It was gonna be a happy accident because I couldn't find the button. I don't know. But I I give the absolute fear for of god too. I do some radio stuff, and there's a really it's noticeable. I do it every time. Really long pause when they first talk and when I start talking. And I need to train myself just to use get some filler words out. Right? Thank you for that great question. I'm always admiration of people who have like this. Thank you for great question. Very interesting. And really, they're just buying themselves time. I just I can't do that. I find that distract like, if you wanna see me really trying to answer a question, like, I shut my eyes and look like I'm asleep. Like.

Doesn't They're not there. They're not there. They're not there. It's it's a never but I because I find it all too distracting, so I'm like, okay. I'm just gonna really think hard. And to my view, they get a much better answer, but they do obviously think that I'm quite odd. But I'm I'm pretty out on being different. That was so interesting. I thought bloody hell. Like, they're setting expectations in the agenda. I mean, you just want it because you want the boss to go, actually, there's no reason for them to be here. I still expect they learn nothing, waste time. You know what? You know? Because I all those ways, like, you know, let's just promote it as an efficiency goal. So I like, you know, we're all go to less pointless meetings.

But I I thought it was, you know, setting the expectations. Something yeah. In the sixty seconds to respond, particularly when things are tends to say, like, a very, very interesting different thing. You also have spoken before about removing the unwritten rules.

Like Yeah.

Could you talk to that a bit?

Yes. So I think I think this this comes back to the agendas and providing really clear expectations of what's expected within a meeting. So it's like, can I stand up, or do I have to sit down? Do I have to turn my camera on, or can I leave my camera off? Can I go to the bathroom? Is that okay for me just to stand up and get out? How do you want me to interact? Do I need to put my hand up, or do I need to actually just interject? When can I ask questions? So you're asking, am I allowed to ask them throughout the meeting, or do you want me to leave them to the end? These are really, really simple things that actually can if you you lay them out upfront.

And you kick off your training or whatever it is by taking those those things and highlighting them, people just feel a little less anxious about certain situations. I often say to people, please get up and move around in in meetings. I know what it's like as an ADHDer to sit and fidget and feel like I'm stuck to my chair and all I wanna do is just run around the room. By giving people permission to stand up and and listen or escape from the room if they need to and come back, giving that permission is is really helpful as so it just makes people feel a little less self conscious. But for those who sometimes struggle with unwritten rules, it just makes it super clear as to what is expected of them.

Yeah. It's a big it's a big deal. But also, like, people just lie. You're like, is it okay to like, how do we do questions? Anytime they look at you, oh, yeah. Anytime whenever you want. Turns out that's just not the case. Right? Like, they really don't want you to interrupt, really want you to do it at the end. Needing to have that proper you know, they need that self awareness to not so when they're talking about unwritten rules to actually know the answer, like be truthful in the answer and not, you know, the polite answer of, oh, yeah. You can talk anytime. Can get up and but actually, if you get up, we're all gonna think you're you know, it's gonna be very bad.

Yeah. So you're just talking about the chair. Like, if you wanna torture me, present it like some kind of presentation environment, put me in the front on a squeaky chair. Oh my god. Like, you know, just like I can't move. Everyone can see.

And that's all thinking about then, isn't it? You're not listening. You're looking at it. But.

It needs all my attention Otherwise, I'm gonna move and I'm gonna squeak. It's yeah. The movement of to anyone organizing in person conferences where their ADHD is, can we have a bit at the back where we can walk around, where the exit door's out so we can actually like swan in and out and be super easy? I I did there's a big debate about ADHD waitlist at parliament. You have this small area, and you had to sit there. And if you went out, then the next person in the queue went in, and you're only about in and out at certain times. And like, it was there were a few people there who really struggled, and they're just coming in and out all the time. You do just feel like it was it was set up particularly badly.

Yeah. But if you think about our classrooms, I've been in warthons. I'll stuck on chairs all of the day. Yeah. When you said about standing room only, like standing room at the back, you get it at the theater sometimes. You get it at concerts that you go to. It's got a standing area in the middle. They should start to do that at at conferences going forward. Standing room only.

Yes. So yeah. But particularly at the back where you're looking, like, get away with with. Right. Yeah. Obviously, pop pop calls it like, hey. You well, you seem to be a fave with the mush pit, like, you're you're in. We talked about some other back to topic. Talked about some other other common adaptations for ADHD people. And to to give you a reminder, talked about color blocking, timers, reminders, Pomodoro, which I think needs some caveating Yeah. And and not beating up around consistency. So it'd be quite it'd just be interesting to hear you talk on those, whichever ones of those you can remember. Ones.

So these, I guess, are are the some of the things that I've tried. Some of them, as I said, some work consistently, some do not. Color blocking absolutely does. So if I look in my diary, I make sure that, I color block, all of the the meetings that I have. So who is it I'm meeting? I I might prior not prioritize, but color block, like a client meeting, a different color to just having a general chat with somebody. I also use time blocking in my diary as well. So, if I have a specific task to do, I will block out time in order to get that task done within my diary. So it's almost like using focus time. And what I'm not always good at, so this is where I say these are things that that help sometimes but don't always help.

Is I will put things in my diary. I'll block out time to do something, and I'll get distracted and I'll do something else. If I don't have a deadline on something, it won't get done, which is a real challenge that I I have to work with. So if somebody doesn't give me a deadline, it's a real struggle for me to actually get that piece of work done. So deadlines are super important, but, yeah, color blocking is very, very useful. Particularly, I've got a very visual brain, so seeing things in color is super helpful. Timers and reminders. I wouldn't be at this meeting if my calendar didn't tell me to be here. I use that all of the time. I also use timers. So using this Pomodoro technique.

I if there's a piece of work that I'm really struggling to get started with and it feels like it's gonna take me a long time, to do, what I will do is I'll set a timer for twenty five minutes, and I will give myself twenty five minutes to basically do that task. And at the end of those twenty five minutes, I can then make a decision as to whether or not I'm going to continue with that task or put it down for a little while and come back to it. But what I'll always do after twenty five minutes is look away, do something else, go get some water, whatever it is, and then come back and reset the time for another twenty five minutes. And I actually find that helps me. I think that the the ability.

For something to to ping at me at the end twenty five minutes almost gives me that dopamine hit in order to keep going. To do lists are I find them so inconsistent with to do lists. I am the typical ADHD that has every single diary or planner. I've tried them all. I've tried online. I've tried scraps of paper. I've tried post its. I've tried written planners. I actually took to buying planners that don't have a date in them anymore because I used to feel I would be guilty about the fact I would start them one month and I'd be consistent for two weeks. And then about three months later, there's nothing in it. I'd pick it up again. I have got a lot better about.

Not beating myself up about the fact that I don't write a to do list or I'm not consistent with this. I know that if I'm particularly stressed or overwhelmed with the amount of work that I've going I've got going on, that I actually do need to sit down and write that to do list, and then it does help me, but I don't have to do it every single day. And the other thing that I will just mention on this is and I've I've recently started using AI. AI for me is just the most amazing invention ever, particularly for providing structure and breaking down tasks. So if there's a piece of work that I need to do that I can chuck into AI.

And it will literally go right. You need to do this, this, this, this, and this. It will even put time scales on it for me, in terms of this is if I go I need to, deliver this by this deadline. What do I need to do? And it will literally break it up. So, there are lots of things that exist. None of these things are expensive. Most of these are just simple ways of working that help my brain function in the workplace.

You talk thank you for sharing on that. You talked about so and I thought it was just interesting for people to hear about the adjustments that you've used personally, but you've also talked used for others. You talked about creating a toolkit and it going very badly. Could you tell us a bit about that? Yeah. So.

I think when we when we're talking about neurodiversity in the workplace, it's okay not to get it completely right first time. And and there was a real balance when we're talking about neurodiversity in the workplace because you've got to balance the challenges and the support for those challenges, but the strengths as well. Because the only way we are gonna normalize neurodiversity in the workplace is to talk about why it is good for business and why organizations need to harness neurodiversity. And sometimes we don't get it right. So there was a a scenario at They produced this most amazing toolkit. It was brilliant. So if you thought think about all of the different ways of working, so communication skills, organisational skills.

How to behave in meetings, all of those sorts of different ways of way working, they built out a toolkit that basically said, these are some of the things that might help you when you when you have these challenges. And they sent it both to Lyme managers and also to those that are neurodivergent. So it's accessible by everybody. But one of the big challenges around it is actually if you think about this is a toolkit that of all the things that might help you, what it is actually missing in that narrative is, oh, by the way, these aren't just these individuals don't just bring challenges to the organization. So it was about how do you communicate that? How do you phrase it so that what you're not doing is putting out something that's.

Massively useful and it genuinely is massively useful to a number of different people, but how do you balance the narrative around that? So one of the things did fantastically is when we started talking about neurodiversity, we talked about it from a strengths perspective. We didn't deny challenges existed, but the narrative was very much focused on the strengths individuals brought to the organization and how do we highlight highlight those strengths. And we don't shy away from the spiky profiles or the fact that there are challenges individuals are gonna have. But actually, if you're an organization, you want to harness the strengths that your your, employees have. So.

The biggest piece of learning from that is get the balance right. If you're gonna send something out to an organization, make sure the narrative around it, it balances both the strengths and the challenges. Otherwise, it just lands as a here's a whole heap of stuff that somebody can't do and there's some tools that potentially might support them. Don't be afraid to get it wrong. Nobody has got all of the answers around neurodiversity of the work in work at the moment.

But it's you talked to it earlier too, that that balance of talking about strengths and and positives. There's a very nice document from one of the big music companies around neurodivergence, and they called their where they recognized that they were supporting their artists in being different, but not their staff in the same way. And they created a booklet called creative differences, which was a a a balance on talking to some of that strengths and creativity to to yeah. It's still it's now quite some time ago. It's still, quite a thing. Yeah. Thank you for talking, you know, talking to you there. And I think I met a someone who ran the technology division of one of the very large Russell Group universities.

And they were talking about neurodivergent diet. And they said, well, we are neurodivergent. So I can because and they were completely blunt about it. They just said we couldn't afford this talent. Otherwise, like, we wouldn't get this level of great people if we if we didn't do it. And they were if we're talking about the blunt part, we're like and because we a place where those people can work and thrive and have a well, we get to pay them less. We we don't want to be in a place where we're selling our services for a discount because we can't work in all in in in environments that close are closed off to us. But it was, you know, it's just what do you what do you think when you hear that? I I I actually genuinely have no words.

That yeah. No. Not okay. It's a simple response. It's actually not less than, I think is a phrase I heard recently. Different. Difference. Difference. It's not about being I have ADHD. I have had an incredibly successful career. It's about getting a finder in a role that really does harness my talents and I've been lucky in that at I did. I would never have stood for being paid less just because I have an ADHD title, and I think that's really that's not a great narrative at all.

Yeah. To be fair, were paying people less across the board in a very academic But their feeling was that because they were neurodivergent friendly, they were getting people who were otherwise excluded from other workplaces They were coming to them, and that then allowed them to get much better talent. But it it's so it wasn't singled out, but it's sort of was in terms of the entire if we took it at a more macro level. Yeah. Okay. We talked we said we'd talk about this, and I need to I know there are some questions too, so I need to interweave those. But we said we talked about emotional dysregulation.

Like, this is Yeah. Like, it's a big deal because a lot of people find their entire career stops at the point they have an emotional outburst at work. And yeah.

Would you talk to that? Yeah. That's it. Yeah. I I talked to it personally actually. So I I remember crying in the office. I must have been in my early twenties, the director who I was crying at at the time basically said to me, I let you get away with this last week, but this does not happen in my office, and I do not wanna see tears from you ever again. And it was it was horrendous. I obviously didn't know I had ADHD at the time, and I do absolutely feel emotion in in a different level to often those around me within the workplace. It meant I masked my emotion for a huge amount of time until I felt safe enough where I was allowed to actually react to that. Safe spaces are so important. It is about finding somebody.

You trust within an organization where you genuinely can just go and have that emotional outburst. I know I had it. I know at times, my line manager probably got very frustrated with me when I would literally rant and just get frustrated and angry and everything that needed to come out would come out. But it is about finding that safe person where you can have that conversation with no judgment, with no no repercussions as a result of what you're saying. So, I work with somebody, who found transition really hard, and there were times we're actually creating a safe space where that individual could cry and threaten to leave and all sorts of other things.

But know at the end of that hour that unless she came back to me two days later and said, do you know what? Actually, I do want to leave. None of that was going to go anywhere other than have that health that safe space held for her. So, yeah, it is it is really challenging to to manage emotions in the workplace when when you do react, people do genuinely think, oh, Why are they they reacting in that way? So yes. So for me, it's it's about finding that safe person where you can you can have that that meltdown and know that you will be okay as a result of doing that. I can't always say I did it brilliantly. My face often tells people what I'm thinking.

So it it like, in a meeting, if I don't agree, I think you'll probably read it on my face. So I do have to try quite hard to to hide that.

Jess has sent in a question on Facebook. It's great to see you talking about strengths perspective. Do you have any positive examples that you could share, please?

Yes. So so we everything when I when I do an awareness session about neurodiversity, strengths are included as as standard. So so if you take ADHD as the example, the ability to connect dots, the ability to think creatively, these are the things that I highlight. I I don't sit there and go, oh, by the way, they they might be really bad at managing time. They might be, not so great at organizing themselves or prioritizing, but it is to focus on the things that individual can bring to an organization. Big picture thinking, understanding the broader context of something, connecting issues that other people might not have done, excellent problem solving. And these are all skills that organizations want. So if we focus organizations'

Attention on the skills that organizations want through neurodiversity, then that is a much more positive conversation.

Yeah. Thank you. It's we've had quite a few questions into the onto globaladhdsorry,.com. And if you click on the schedule, you'll find you can click through to find where to put put questions in. I do need to do the like, please donate to people. Like, so as charities, this is hard. We do not have any surplus. We don't have any reserves. Every month is tough. We are here absolutely trying to make change. And as I said before, everyone's donating all the speakers donating their their time, and we're very grateful for it. Thank you, Tania. Couldn't give you a proper thank you in a second. But please donate globaladhd.com and donate. It covers the cost of the conference, and then any surplus goes to.

The organizing charities ourselves and ADHD Australia. Right. Let's see. On question. So A number of people have talked about bullying. Like, it is a big deal. Do you have any comments on, like, on managing that in a workplace outside of.

I I I've not had the experience in the neurodiversity space of of bullying. Obviously, I my intention was to create something where that didn't exist. But I think.

There is You think that the center of access is a bubble. Right? Like it's Yeah. It's a lack of awareness.

It's an education issue. It is a how do you, sorry. How do you, that is absolutely a reeducation piece. So one of the things that did really well was when we started talking about neurodiversity, we started talking about it to to as many people that would listen. Actually, community did a fantastic job of going out and talking about, what neurodiversity is. As I said, strengths focused, and reeducating. But we've got to remember that where we are with neurodiversity, we are still in the infancy. Three years ago, I wasn't talking about this. This wasn't something that was on my radar, and here I am now talking to you about it in terms of the work that we've done. So this is still a relatively new.

Concept that organizations are trying to get their head around. I know it's existed forever. I I get that, but they are actually now starting to pay attention. But the only way that they can pay attention is to understand it and raise that awareness. And as they start to get it and they're better educated, then hopefully, the the bullying will go down.

And have proper processes to deal with bullying. I think one of the the the things that's coming out in both the questions in the schedule and on social media is, you know, the the, you know, the.

Processes don't don't don't come to But that's not a neurodiversity thing. That is that organizations should have those in process of pulling, full stop. But yeah.

We've had some questions around recruitment, and you have won awards. I know. Well, we have. So can you talk to about why recruiting for neurodivergent neurodivergent people, how it's different? And maybe tell us a bit about your award.

Yeah. So so we won two RAD awards, which are the recruitment advertising agency, I believe, awards. I think that's the example. And for innovation and candidate experience, they're not a neurodiversity specific awards. They are a general recruitment award, and it was amazing to get neurodiversity, on the agenda and and talked about those, those awards. Why The why did we win them in the first place? So I had the amazing opportunity to sit down with my team and basically tear apart the recruitment process that they had been through. And I say this to anybody. If you have a community, the best people to tell you what is working and what is not working within an organization is that community. So me and the team sat down, and we literally.

Went right. What would be useful? What didn't work? And we rebuilt it. And it was very simple things that were put in place. It was everything from the way we communicated. So how do you receive the information? Is it by video? Is it by email? Is it by podcast or soundbite? Is it an infographic? If you think about it, recruitment, this is the biggest barrier to entry for those that are neurodivergent. It's also life changing for people, some people to have for everybody to have a job. So why do we not give people the information in a way that they can actually digest it? We built safety from the start. So from that very first second that you landed on, an NCOE job description or website.

You knew that adjustments for part and parcel of everything we were gonna do, and you knew, the the what the process was going to look like. We said we were really clear. It's like, this bit is gonna take two weeks. This bit is gonna take a week. This is the expectation, and here are the interview questions up front. We stuck to deadlines. So if we said we were gonna do something, if I said, I'm gonna call you in twenty four hours, I would call them in twenty four hours. It's anxiety inducing if you don't stick to it.

And then, yeah, absolutely really clear as to what was expected every single step of the way. So the recruitment process was laid out and it was very visible from day one. And information was passed to the candidate the whole way through the process in terms of culture, the team they were joining, the people they were meeting, why it was important to us. And then when it came to the actual recruitment process, skills based. I know we're talking about skills based recruitment quite a lot at the moment, but genuinely skills based. And when we were looking, we weren't thinking about well rounded individuals. We genuinely looking for, have you got the technology mindset we need in order to do this job?

How are you engaging with us, whether that is verbally or written? So it wasn't a case of you have to be the most brilliant verbal communicator. If you're engaging with the process in the chat, that was enough. And and how can you problem solve? Because if you think about technology roles, things are moving so incredibly fast. We need people that are gonna be able to go, I know how to fight figure this out. I know how to approach something I don't know the answer to. So, yeah, it was it was eye opening. I started my corporate career in recruitment, and it and I've been a hiring manager for years, and it turned everything I knew about recruitment on its head.

And I will never look at it in the same way again. And I think if this is the one thing that I can I'd rant about this continuously. It's the one thing I leave behind. It's about getting people to think differently about how they hire people into organization.

Thank you. I the the clock's got ahead of us. So Oh, goodness. Yeah. We're out of time. And I'm doing a good job. Like, very first is our third conference everyone. First conference, 3,000 people registered from 54 countries. Second conference, 6,000 people registered from 94 countries this year, more and a 104 countries. So and I know that our number of people are are hired. Like, it's quite something. Because we continue to grow and grow and grow, and it's thanks to you've worked on your donating your time and sharing your knowledge and making it somewhere you really properly learn something interesting and new and have your have your perspective changed by an award winner of in.

Multiple award winner in recruitment, talking about new diverse recruitment. And it is, you know, I think that phrase that we talk about as a charity essential for some good for everyone. Like the idea of having it communicated in different ways that people can understand, having a clear programme and fulfilling meeting those expectations and saying if I'm gonna contact them, then you do. Like these are things that everyone benefits from.

Yeah. I absolutely. And it's not hard. It's not it's not difficult.

Well, yeah. Some people seem to find it very difficult. I don't like the the calling and thing. You've been amazing. Thank you so much. I've I've really, really enjoyed this, and I've learned a lot and I imagine others have too. And certainly things are very new. And your perspective is so good. Obviously, now you have your own consultancy peg squared taking that experience of inclusivity for neurodivergent people and spreading the word into other corporations and supporting them, which is wonderful. It's very, very nice when you've got a career that both is incredible and does good at the same time as Yeah. You know, being an important successful role. So kudos to you. Thank you.

We have to say goodbye. Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure. Oh, thank you. You're absolutely awesome. Thank you very much. Bye, Tania.