Hello. Welcome to this segment. This is to doing the to dos and how to to do the to dos. And very excited about it. Particularly thrilled to have such incredible ADHD coaches to participate in this. So immediately, let's bring on Anj and Tina. Anj Cairns from ADHD with Anj and thirteen Squire, ADHD coach and consultancy. You're both fantastic. Thank you so much for doing this, and you're welcome.

Great to be here. Thank you for having us. That's really good. So thank you.

Well, I was looking forward to all, you know, all you can share. Now look, we we we talked sort of backstage previously on, like, what we're gonna start with. We just thought, you know what? If that's the question. Where do you start? Where do you start with to dos? And, I mean, it's pretty commonplace that people with ADHD seriously, seriously struggle with them. And it's genuinely a joke, like if someone with ADHD is struggling and the, you know, their friend, colleague, boss, teacher will go, have you tried a list? And I'm like, and So look, where do we start, Anj?

Absolutely. The the whole have you tried it a list thing is so, so common. And I've had it said to me, it doesn't land well. What I really find useful, it particularly depends on the context. So we're always gonna have lots of things to do. We have the things that we have to do, the things that we want to do, and then these random ideas that pop into our head all the time as well, which may distract us from the stuff that we've got on our regular list. But I think with lists particularly, it's about if you're looking at it on a on a day to day context, picking out a thing.

Pick out the things and splitting them up a little bit. So looking at what you have to do. So today, I've got a number of meetings, so I'm expected to be there. They're not really gonna move in my diary. They're there. And then I'll look at all the other things. And I tend to look over a week because if I'm doing things on a day, I might not have the energy or I might not have the motivation to do those things on that day. And if they don't need to be done on that day, they can move around. So it's a bit like creating a menu. So really just working out what are the things, first of all. Create yourself a menu of things that you would like to do and then see where you can slot them in because.

The reality is that our energy is gonna change from day to day as well, and working with our energy can make a huge amount of difference to what we can get done.

So my core takeaways on that is it's work out what it what is the just take that step back and go, what is it I've I've got to do? That's the start of and so for for Tina, where where does it start with you?

I think when we face this kind of dilemma of what to do with the to dos, often what we're looking for is a system. Like, what am I gonna do with all of this? What system's gonna work for me? And how do I even figure out what system is the best one for me? And I think that's where we need to really start with understanding what it is that we're actually looking for. So and that's rather than in going into the marketing messages of all of these systems and apps or even physical systems like, you know, bullet journals, because they're really good at selling the benefits that we're all gonna get, and our brains just love it. Like, the idea the idea that this thing is gonna solve our problem is just so dopamine filled.

And we just want it. But as I'm sure a lot of us know, we've tried a lot of those systems, and it is can be really exciting for a time, but it doesn't necessarily deliver what's promised. Like, it doesn't actually work or to dos. So understanding what it is that is act what we're actually looking for from a system, I think, is really important. So understanding what what's problem we wanted to solve. You know, do we need to be able to put all of our tasks somewhere really quickly? Or do we need need to be able to add more detail to them and be able to slice our lists and to do in to do some certain ways, like in different categories maybe?

And that and understanding who we are as people as well. If we are very visual, we might need a system that actually that is very visual where we can see our tasks in certain ways and there's lots of colors involved maybe. So just understanding some of those basics in terms of what are the problems we're trying to solve, where we're trying to get to with having a system. Because there I'm telling you now, if you came on here thinking, okay, I'm finally gonna find out what's the best system for an ADHDer, there is no one system that just works because you have an ADHD brain. You have to get to know yourself a little bit more in terms of what.

Processing style you have and how you like to see your tasks and what you're actually trying to achieve by your system.

I've started to create an idea that I have I have a theory in my head and see how this goes. Where there are essentially three things that an ADHDer needs to be successful. And one is to know yourself. Like, you've got to understand yourself and your ADHD really well because you can't fit anything to the mold if you don't know the mold. Right? And I think you both actually talked to that a bit. Like, Anj, you were sort of called called straight in and, you know, talking about, like, what is the what's the need? What are we doing? That's your world. It's understanding yourself and your world. And Tina, think, talked directly to you. Second part is, I think Tina cost us half our audience there, which is like.

Not if you wanted to find the solution, it's not happening. But it should actually on the positive, keep the audience to stay because they're like, got it. We've got to be in for the long haul, which is about fifty nine minutes. It's not it is like longer. The one, know yourself and your ADHD. Two, you gotta learn what works. You've got to do the experiments with self and work what what works. You can't just go throw the baby out with the bathwater every time you're like, oh, this one hasn't quite worked. You've got to look at it. What are the lessons of it? What are the parts that do work? What are the parts that don't? And and that way, every day is is forward. And the third one, which we will not be covering in this.

So this is very much about section two. Like, what works? The third part is, which is harder to to work on is you gotta be somewhere where you can be different. Yeah. Because you can't do the number two, the things differently if you're not if you're someone which doesn't allow that at all. So if you're in an environment which is very it's this way or the highway, then how to work with that, and then it's gonna be a discussion. The.

Sorry. To add to that as well. So I think accepting that we are like, ADHD in our brains are really situationally variable. So there might even be things that certain tasks that we do better in certain environments or using a particular application, or we do it that in a physical place. We do certain things better on the sofa. We do certain things better in a coffee shop as well. And like accepting that variability rather than the word I hear so often, which is like consistency. I wanna find something where I can be consistent. It's like, actually, what we probably wanna do is accept and kinda go with the shift When we can't be consistent, that's our cue to we should change something up because that's how our brains work.

Yeah. Though Yeah. In management science, someone there there was a phrase which I, for some reason, really stuck with me, which is that the only constant is change. And I was like, hello, my life. But I think it's such a good point. I saw, Anj, you'd like nodding in agreement, like the Totally. Fighting for consistency, but actually accepting we're highly variable. And actually, if you accept the variability, you can then be quite consistent in the way you respond to it and under and have a plan. But if you just try and be, like, you know, like, very, very regimented, I mean, it comes across when it comes across. But if you don't have a strategy for when it you.

Have it doesn't quite meet and you have that sitch thought that was a massive point around situational variability, like the idea that something might work for some things and not others, that we don't have this important like dual meaning phrase, magic pill that solves everything. The it's not, you know, that's just not not the case. It doesn't reference the magic pill, obviously. Medication for those options, it's a helping hand. It does not suddenly make you an incredibly perfect runner of a bullet journal.

Does it not? That's such a shame. Know? Yeah. Totally agree. I think as well as this the situational aspect is really strong, but then there's also this kind of thing that this tendencies tendency to go, well, that worked really well for a while, now it doesn't. So I'm never gonna do that ever again. But, actually, you've got something that works really well. So you can revisit in the future. You can go, maybe I'll give that a go now because it worked for a reason. Yeah. Well, Tina, you know what you add to your bag of tricks that you've got. Yeah. I think that was such a big point, Tina, like on the.

Taking lessons is like not not throwing it out.

Yeah.

And I think you mean. But, yeah, I'm gonna I know I wanted you to respond. Sorry. Oh, right. Yeah. No. Is phrasing.

That sorry. And that that I completely agree with that. And that's what I often call, like, taking the data from your learning. Right? So when you've tried something and it might, you might think that, oh, it doesn't work anymore, but something about it worked. It worked at the beginning. It worked for a while. So what is that data, the bits that you can sort of pick out from that? Equally, you can look at it and go, what had me stopped? Like, what what made it boring? Or, you know, what didn't work so well about it? And then use all of that data to build.

Like, your your next solution or a better solution or use parts of it and what have you. Which I'm sure you agree with because that's kinda what you said. Right? Absolutely. And I love the idea about data. And I think earlier you mentioned something I think you mentioned experiment. And I often think.

About or, you know, talk about things being an experiment because we're not looking for we're not looking for perfection because it doesn't exist, as she said earlier. So what do we need to do? We need to experiment. We need to see what what works for us some more most of the time. And then we've got those things. We know we've used that data, and that data comes from us and it comes from the doing. And we've got often got these very inquisitive minds, and so we can tap into that a little bit and be we can be in the experiment ourselves and benefit from those results.

It has to be less negative as well, you know, instead of relating to as a failure or didn't work. It's like, no. What what are the the the data points, which doesn't data points doesn't have a positive or negative connotation. It's just fact effectively, like what happened, which I think makes it a lot easier for us to actually unpick what might work and and what you might wanna leave behind. So which is also good for our brains when we're not having that automatic negative, connotations of things.

Yeah. That works really well for me because I've got this horrible thing. I I'm about the words success and failure. I think they're very loaded. We've all got so much in our brains around that. So if we use an expert you know, that kind of idea of an experiment and data and being able to try things out, then we take that pain away. We take those negative contentions out.

Yeah.

So I think people would like something to chew on in terms of direct ideas. What interventions have you seen that you were often like a first port of call for you, like, you've seen work multiple times? Who wants to who wants to take that first?

Well, I I always my answer to that question is always there isn't a particular system that will work. But I principles that we should look for that I think works are things that are customizable because we wanna be able to adjust it to our brain. Now there is a you can go overboard where you spend so much time in the customizable black hole, but a little bit of customization, I think, is is a good thing. It needs to be flexible and forgiving. And by that, I mean, you know, any systems whereby you don't do it for a few days, you come back and it's just got, like, five red crosses that just immediately makes you feel bad is not a forgiving system. Like, want systems are customizable, flexible, and forgiving.

A a way of managing our tasks would be sort of my my guiding principles for things that work. I have examples. I mean, I do think bullet journals, for example, is is a good physical version of that. I say physical because I think often when people think I need to organize myself, they think, I need a digital system. Even if they've been, like, writing things down by hand all of their lives, all of a sudden, they think they need to go digital. But I think, again, you need to take the data from that and actually accept that you probably like physical. So, you know, a bullet journal is a is a an example of a a forgiving system, and they're obviously digital versions of that too.

And I like the callback to, like, you know, you need to know who you are, like and and to do things that yeah. For example, if it's paper, then recognize that that's the thing that you that works for you. People talk about bullet journal a lot. What does that mean? What is a bullet journal? So.

I'm gonna be honest. I am not I'm completely digital person, so I'm not a bullet journal person. But it what it provides in terms of forgiveness and flexibility is that you you write down every day or every week what it is that you're going to do. So you don't come back to logs or or things that sort of cause you into shame as it were. There is you get a fresh start a lot of the time, and and that is another example of just a forgiving system. And I think there's actually a a digital system well, Microsoft To Do, which not a lot of people know about, and I used to use a lot before I sort of left corporate. They have a forgive forgiving feature as in they have a today list. So you have your list there.

Which is like a whole database of tasks, but every day your today is blank. So you you get to sort of start afresh. Now it'll give you suggestions of what you might wanna follow-up on that you didn't do yesterday, but it doesn't it doesn't have that, yeah, sort of penalizing effect to it. Or like where you go, oh my god, that's overdue again, which I really like and I think works for a lot of people in that environment.

Yeah. And then Mike then Microsoft To Do, which is a is a good is actually a pretty decent product. I do think most people have it bundled with Office and don't don't don't recognize or just don't not aware of it. Yeah. Aware of it. And and actually, they've done quite a lot of good work. I've unsuccessfully tried to lobby Microsoft to incorporate the to do into the other Office apps so that you could, say, have a Word document, an embedded to do, that when you ticked it off in the to do, it would also get ticked off in the Word so that you could bring things from different documents and manage them centralized.

Anyway, wish me luck. So we'll keep cracking Oh, Henry, your brain works like mine. That's the kind of thing I.

They're now in a place to they've got they've created with the AI. They've got they now link all of your data in a thing called the Microsoft Curve. And this isn't a we might we actually might touch on it. We're gonna we're gonna come back to this about if we can use AI. We're talking about the bullet journal and other systems. Anj, you've and Tina, you talked actually about the the need for it not to be you know, to be forgiving. I think, Anj, you've got to focus on apps being kind.

Yeah. So it's very similar. So I think that there are some as Tina was talking about, there's some apps that really are quite, like, on it in terms of, like, you've done this wrong. You haven't achieved it, and you've got these big kind of this is overdue, and it's not really helpful. So I've I use a couple of apps that I really like. So I use for planning Sonsama, and it has a sort of a very kind element built into it. It encourages you not to try to schedule too much in your day as well, which I think is quite nice, and there's no real kind of consequences. There's no penalties. It'll move things forward. And after three days, it will put them into an archive.

If you haven't done the task. So they're still there. You can still access them, but it does give you a little bit of time pressure on that as well. So you wanted to do them then in there. And there's another app that I'm using, and it's sort of a to do list for self care, which is, you know, we often build our list with multiple things in them. This separate called Finch, which some people may have used, and it's across between, I guess, Tamagotchi, where you have to feed it and look after it and things, and then it goes off on this little bird goes off on adventures. But you have self care tasks in there, and it's really, really kind. There's lots of that built into it, lots of positive reinforcement and not the negative side of things.

It starts with really tiny steps for everything which is hugely helpful I think. So, yeah, basically, let's let's use not use apps that are gonna be mean to us. We want things that are kind, and forgiving as Tina said.

And what you touched on there as well is the gamification that can work really well for us. Right? So I've not used that. Think since some I've had great things, by the way, and I must try it myself. But Finch was it Finch or something? Yeah. Finch. Yeah. I like that. That's the word. Yeah. And and that gamification can be really important for us, especially if we're sort of feeling our system's getting a bit dull. Gamify it with ourselves. Gamify it within whatever you're using. Like, super important. Should we should we talk about eat that frog? Because I'm pretty sure, you know yeah.

Don't eat the frog. I have a frog somewhere, and I, you know, I don't know if you have seen my frog vid don't eat the frog video, Tina, but there's me with this frog going, don't eat the frog, because we're given this especially in the corporate world, really much kind of fed this. If you do the hard thing first, then you get to the fun things, which doesn't work for our brains. But it's very ingrained, and I I did this for years. I was a charity CEO.

And I remember hearing this and going, oh, that sounds really good. I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna try this. And the pain of doing it just as the pain of eating all your vegetables when you're a kid and, like, eating all the bits of your dinner you didn't really want before you could have your pudding. Same thing. And just it just creates more and more barriers, and you don't get the dopamine out of it. No. Completely. I and that's why I wanted to mention it because I think people.

It is a very neurotypical way of kind of approaching task management. It's like, I'll do the biggest things, but we should probably explain. That's what we mean by eating cat problems. Like, do the biggest, hardest thing, the thing that you're losing sleep over. Like, do that first so that you can get on with the rest of the day. And if you're neurotypical, that kinda makes sense. There's logic in it. Our brains aren't always so logical. And, actually, what might happen is that we'll just sit and do nothing all day, get nothing done because that frog or that task is just in the way. And then what we wanna do is, like, eat the treat first. Have a little Yes. Have something that spikes our dopamine.

Gives us a bit of feel good, and kinda go, I might wanna do something else now because you you build it up. Yeah. There has to be some dopamine in in in the things that we do. So Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad we got that said. We've been on our level. Absolutely.

Reduces the you know, that that sort of thing. We don't wanna build up shame. So the first thing we do in the morning is the thing that we find really incredibly hard, and we don't get it done, and it sits there and it's in our brain because we haven't done it. And that's a bad thing because this is a technique that everyone says works and we can't do it. So what's wrong with us? And then you go into this big spiral. Whereas if, as you say, if you you do something that, like, actually you want to do and it's nice and it's not doesn't have to be a big thing, chances are you're gonna be able to tick that box off.

And that reinforces the fact that you can do things and that you can have success. And so the next when you go to whatever your next task is, whether it's the frog or something else, you've already got a sense that you can achieve. So you expect to achieve, and that's just it it's a spirally thing. So rather than starting the way that's harder, just start the way that's easier. And I'm really, really, really next time I go to my mom's gonna say, no, mom. I want my pudding first and see what she says. I'm not sure she's gonna go for it, but, know.

I thought that what's really nice about this transition in the conversation is we've gone from talking about, look, this is your to do system. But if we're gonna talk about to doing the to dos, we need to talk about actually how you get them done. And, like, for some, eating the frog works really well. Like and we talked also about the experimenting, working out knowing yourself. I certainly think in terms of my ADHD that I have to think quite hard about when I'm best able to focus in on something and when I have the best control. And for me, actually, the first time I sit down, drop my kids off. My wife starts pretty early. And I come up to my desk and whatever if what I have great control on starting that thing now. Like and.

So in terms of eating the frog, that's great for me. My massive danger is that's my day. Right? I am getting sucked into that. I am gonna kill it, but and that's also the danger of picking some picking the the the treat, the easier thing. And actually, my day might be lost into something relatively minor, particularly if I if I like it. And and that can be quite dangerous. But there are also those moments where I'm I'm struggling to get going, and actually, you know, that sweet to treat thing, which then acts as my my runway into doing other stuff, can be very important. And, Tina, you you talked about that sort of variability, that that that difference.

Yeah.

But how do you work with people who go, like, I'm not doing the right thing. I'm not doing Yeah. Like, here's my to do list. I did a great job. It's 12345 where I've used some SAMA, and then for, like, I at this time, I put in that, and now it's this time, and I am doing something completely different.

Yeah. Well, so the you kind of mentioned two different things there, I think most people assume that there's always an issue with starting tasks, whereas actually, some people find it really easy to get into hyper focus and like Henry said, like you just get lost in that whether it's a small task or a big task, you're just lost in that. It's all about kind of applying different strategies to that. So if you're type of focused, we need to look at where can we get conscious breaks or how can we break that? How can something kind of almost encourage that disruption with an intentional sort of connecting to the bigger picture or something. In terms of getting started into tasks.

Again, we need to, like, accept our brains are a bit different. There are some things that will just work better because of your type of brain, but most people need, I think you mentioned this, Anj, like a menu of options that they can apply. Because like Henry said, different energies, different time of day, different like, you know, if we had enough sleep, we didn't have sleep. So different things will work. And so we're talking about things like, you know, you can create an accountability that might be really motivating. It's really motivating for some people. Making it interesting is what we talked about, like, that creating that dopamine hit, however small, but just, like, create connect to the interest of something.

And then build on that. Don't expect it to just be like, oh, right now, you're in on it. But trust that we we connect to it a little bit and then build on it. Using breaking things down can be great. For some people, however, it can be right now, instead of one task, I had 10 and now it just feels overwhelming. So we might need to just consider what we're trying to get to rather than just having all of those individual tasks staring back at us. And actually then break them down again where they sorry. Like, collate them again a little bit based on our objectives of where we're trying to get to. Using timers, there there's really good way of using timers. It isn't as simple as just putting a timer on. You need to have, like, an intention.

Like, what am I gonna do in these five minutes, ten minutes, twenty five minutes? Where am I gonna get to? So it's a bit of gamification when you put a timer on. It's not it the timer in itself can just give you a focus of reminding you of, oh, yeah. I'm trying to do this. But I find it works best when you're really intentional. Even if you can't finish what you're doing in twenty minutes, don't put it on two hours because it's gonna take two hours to finish. Don't put it on more than twenty five minutes ever would be my advice. But but know where you wanna be in twenty five minutes because that's what your brain kind of likes and often where people maybe not using time as in the best way.

And also don't underestimate things like physical movement. Like, sometimes we think to be productive, we need to sit at our desk and just if I stare at this long enough, it'll come to me. And and that's usually not the case, by the way. It's usually a sign that you need to get up and move a bit. And there's neuroscience to this. Like, there's different networks in your brains that kick in when you then start moving. So ideas will come. You'll connect to it. Like, try it. Have it on your menu. Reward systems and verbal processing. A lot of us are verbal processing. So maybe just having a short conversation with somebody that ignites that interest.

I've said a lot now, so I'll be I'll let you Yeah. No. But I think particularly interested about working out how to process if what you were starting to talk to is, like, when you're stuck on a problem, how do you how do you get out of it? And we are going to be doing a a segment on on overwhelm one when you're when you're locked away. And I I but I think that awareness of, you know, your verbal process, do you prefer movement? Like, certainly, like, walking and talking is my absolute preference. I I can know that in my my heart, and I like talking through a problem. You talked about using timers. I have views on the Pomodoro method. Don't know what they are. What's your view of the Pomodoro method?

Well, I kinda said a bit. Angela, you talked about I think it's pushed. I think it's pushed too much. I think it's, like, pushed as the single solution. So timers, I agree, can be really helpful. I think they work sometimes and not other times. One of the things that I do sometimes is I have a physical alarm clock, which I'll go, oh, I want to do a thing. I wanna put a bit of challenge into it, so I'll set it and it won't be for too long. But I'll put it across the room or I'll put it in the other room. So I can't ignore it because it's loud, but I have to then physically stop what I'm doing at that point and go up and turn it off.

Okay. But I don't like important little way. It's somewhere away. Yeah. You have to go. Go. You have to go. It's not just on your desk. Right? No.

But I don't like the kind of you've got to do this amount of time and then you've got to have five minutes break and then you've got to do this. So I think there's a lot of you work out what works for you. And I agree kinda keeping it short really helps because often it's about getting started. If it's about getting started, then you're probably shorter times are better.

Yeah. I mean, I completely agree with all of that. I I do think it's never as simple as just using a timer. It's always about understanding your intention of it, what where you're trying to get to. And and what what a lot of people tend to do is like, well, I'm in it now. I'm I'm going, so I'm just gonna keep going. And that's where the timer stops working as a as a method of for productivity, really. I'm curious to hear more about what you think now, Henry.

I I honestly, I thought your eloquence on talking about time was was was really great, which like, the the Pomodoro method has a completely flawed premise for people with ADHD. And the flaw is that you'd let say the idea is it's twenty as Anj said, it's twenty five minutes and a fire break and then repeat ad infinitum. And I think the idea then you have a longer break after you've done three Pomodoros or four, and that's your world. The assumption is that after each break, you will easily and conveniently refocus in on whatever it was you were supposed to focus on. And that is just not gonna like, not for us. Right? And I've watched people actually completely destroy their careers using Pomodoro.

And often I've met them where they've done what's happened is they've been so they're so concerned about a hyperfocus, and they've so bought into the system. And what then happens is they don't have the benefit of hyperfocus, so they don't have those moments where you zoom in and do a lot. And they have this floor that you're supposed to be able to focus immediately back in on the thing and they're not. Whereas I think, Tina, you talked to using intentional breaks and and Anj as well. Using the time to say, I'm going to this is this is what I wanna do. I'm gonna create an intentional break. I'll add some gamification. Actually, it'll help me not have hyperfocus and zoom in on this thing, a problem that I talked about earlier. And.

I can use it for good, but it it has an inbuilt variability that the Pomodoro doesn't. And so I have to particularly meeting someone who genuinely had ruined their career because they've just gone, I must use this, I must follow it, and I'm struggling to get anything done. Like, and you're just like you've created yourself a, you know, a series of hurdles in your day that you're particularly not well well tuned for.

Yeah. I was thinking as well. So we've touched on a little bit about breaks and and taking breaks, but also having breaks that are meaningful to you. And on the the you know, if you want to some people might want to have a break and go for a walk, and other people might wanna have a break and read a book. It's whatever is gonna be good for you in that break and how how however long you need it. Now, obviously, that depends what kind of job you do and, you know, when you can have those breaks and what your environment's in. But.

Again, this sort of comes back to this sort of menu of things that you might wanna do in your break, and that helps contain some of the sort of distracting ideas as well. Yeah. So and for a while, I've got big floor to ceiling windows in my flat. So for a while, I I had chalk pens, and I wrote up some of the fun things for breaks so I could see them, and they would be there, and I just beg to sort of pick and choose out of them. Again, that only worked for a while, but it's something that I might go back to in the future. But just giving yourself some options or having a box of ideas or things that you might wanna pull out and just choose from during that time so that you can do something.

But, particularly if you've been working really hard on something and your brain's been concentrating, having something that is restful for you doesn't mean sitting down and having an or having a nap. It could be just doing something different. Yeah.

And what you demonstrated so beautifully there as well was, you know, you had that thing on the wall and it was working well and you might go back to it. It's not a failure. It's just part of your toolbox, part of our menus. You know, there was something that worked about it at the time and you can use it again. That's like a good demonstration of taking the data and make take from it what's useful. I I think I wanna mention here as well in terms of breaks, because so many people come to me and sort of say, I just scroll on my phone or watch YouTube or Netflix or whatever it might be. Right? And I just wanna give people this. Like, sometimes that is what your brain needs. Like, you're doing it because.

If we're overwhelmed or we we just got a lot on or we've just been working in hyper focus and we know we need to switch off, sometimes that's the easiest way because although it's like connecting to something else, it does give your brain a a break where it might be really difficult to to switch off or transition. And maybe you only have five, ten minutes, and that's how we wanna do it. Now, it comes with a caveat, of course, because the examples that you've mentioned, you know, going outside, going for a walk, maybe, like, those are great because we're processing our experiences. We don't do that when we we connect it to another screen. But they so they have different use cases, basically. When we're scrolling on our phone.

It's a different use case to when we're having a break going out walking. So we might wanna consider when taking intentional breaks, what type of break do I need here? Yeah. And leave behind the need to kind of beat ourselves up because we're watched a bit of YouTube whilst having lunch. Now, I also understand that people might not wanna be stuck on YouTube for half an hour, an hour, and and so then we can maybe use timers another way. It's like set a timer, fifteen minutes, and scroll away, and then stop.

Do something else. Get back to work. And there's lots of aids now and things on phones, settings on phones that you can, you know, put in place to help you with that. So I think when you were talking earlier, Henry, about, AI or the different things that we can have in programs and what we can do with those, The possibilities are pretty much endless or will be, but it's about it it all comes back to going, well, what do you want it? What do you want it to do? What will be helpful for you? Not expecting it to fix things, then what will be helpful for me to do this? And it's becoming more and more possible to create that yourself.

Yeah. Have you have either of you seen, much use of AI for for positive for people with ADHD?

God, yeah.

I love it. Why did they not invent this earlier or make it available earlier? Because obviously, it's been growing and developing for quite a long time for many, many years. But there's so many things and so many ways that just take the pain out of things. It reduces the stages. It's, I mean, and again, different for everyone. But, actually, if I can ask chat GPT something, rather than having to scroll around multiple websites to find information in different places, great. I will have to then double check, you know, if there's something that looks like it's slightly odd. You know, this is not the authority of everything everywhere all the time, but it is something that is a tool. So if you can use it as a tool, and.

You can create prompts. So I've got a, I've got a program called Creative Decrops, which is all about taking all your, like, wonderful ideas and then putting them in an ideas barn. You see I see some ideas going there. And then, you can work out what you wanna sow at different times and what's possible to have to use your time. So this is it's a sort of project management in a way, but takes it through to harvest so we get there. And I created, an AI for it, called Chloe. She's the farmhand, but she's been fed all of the information about the programme. So when you ask her something, she relates to it in a way, that's helpful and answers sort of queries about, like.

What what can I do? I'm not, really touched this for a while or, like, this idea, I haven't done anything. How can I get started again? Or how can I reinvigorate it? And and she will get ideas fed from both the internet and but from the source materials as well. So you can start creating things that work for you. And I know sort of a lot of people playing around with having different assistants and things like that for different tasks. How did how did you create Chloe? Like, what was the mechanism? Do know what? It was really straightforward. I'm sure it probably is. It hasn't been in a check for a little while, but chat GPT. There's a you can you can do it. I can't remember the exact stages, but essentially, you go in, you name your.

Bot AI, whatever, and give it a bit of information about context and how it says to be used, and then you can feed it source material. So, you know, I'm just feeding it PDFs and documents and different worksheets and different things from there. And it was incredible. So.

Right. I showed my partner Anj Cairns, you are now you are now Jeeves from PG Wister. Please please consume all the books.

All of them. Yeah. But, yeah. So I mean, as I say, there's a big caveat with all of this stuff that you do have to know that it doesn't know everything. It's not sentient and that you do need to fact check things, but it is getting better and as user as a tool. Yeah. And there are lots of prebuilt ones, obviously.

Tina, have you seen much use of it?

You you were Yeah. I mean, I I personally love it. I I think I've discovered a new use case for it today, which I think is very specific for ADHDers. Because if you think about it, when we do research on Google, like, are so many distractions, so many rabbit holes to go down. Was like, oh, maybe I should read that article. Maybe I should oh, that's really interesting. Completely different. But, you know whereas, actually, when we do research through OpenAI, it does we can be more specific in terms of what we're asking and what it gives us is actually what we've asked for without all the other shiny things, and then you continue inquiring down that or have it change it. But it actually helps.

Us be more focused, I think, when we are researching something, for example. And other than that, I am Interesting. Developing a bit of a bot for using in workplaces for people to figure out what works best for them. So the things we talked about, you know, understanding ourselves because obviously that's that's the challenge. That's the top of the funnel is, okay, what do I need? That's the first question you get if you tell people that you have ADHD. It's like, oh, what can I do to help? Hopefully. That's perfect. It's one of the biggest challenges. Yeah. You you go to your boss and say, like, yeah. I have ADHD.

And they very they they usually meant kindly. They go, how can I help? And you look back at them going, I really I don't know.

A really hard trying to develop, basically, is filling that gap. Yeah. That sounds fantastic.

On the point of to dos to doing the to dos, I was doing some work with Microsoft HQ in The UK, and, you know, I do think actually AI has potential to be very significant for people with ADHD, significant for everyone, but particularly for us. And Microsoft particularly like me because I said, I think that AI can be to ADHD what spell check was to dyslexia. I think it could be very game changing. And I mean it. I wasn't just and I broke it. I broke their AI.

Oh, excellent. And.

Because what I asked it was the use case they were showing. So with their product, it looks through all your documents, all your emails, and that's built into a thing called the Microsoft Curve. And so you can ask it, and it's one of the major use cases. You can say to it, what are my priorities for today? And it will give a good hack. And as you said, Anj, it's not perfect, but it's a great, great start. I asked it, what does my boss think are my priorities for today?

That that's what broke it.

I well, I had a I had a I think a head of EMEA quickly chime in saying, it can't see your boss's curve. It can only see what you see. It's not going like everyone's curve is separate. And yeah. No. I got the whirling the whirling's thing of doom. And as it was a big show and tell from them, I was quite pleased with myself and my that I had broken. It did then slightly altered questions, started to produce some answers. But that ability to you had talked about feeding it data, that ability for it to take onboard your set of information and from that generate priorities was a big deal. I see a lot of people struggle with the white piece of paper and not knowing how to like get going. And again, AI, you can use it to generate your first draft.

And then most people find editing mode much much easier than first creation mode. And you know, I particularly, again, using their their product, Copilot, you can give it a document and say, make a presentation based on this. And it does. And it gives you so it's much more than you can also use it for emails. You can give it the bullet points and say make an informal email based on these bullet points to this person and based on my earlier conversations. And it really can jump some hurdles. So I do, I think potential to be completely game changing, as I think everyone does, particularly for people with ADHD. Anyone to succeed has to play to their strengths and bolster their weaknesses.

I'd argue for us, we've got stronger strengths, weaker weaknesses, and AI can really do some Yeah. Managing of those weaknesses.

I think it's a shame there's well, a shame there's there there seems to be a growing shame about using it, though, and sort of hearing about employers not wanting it used for various tasks. And as you say, it's about being able to to do that. It's not about depersonalizing it. It's about not having to reinvent the wheel every time. So every time you have to do a, you know, an everyday type email, there's absolutely no reason why you should have to, like, start from scratch every time. And you when you can just add your pizzazz to it and shape it into your thing. So I think there's a little bit of That's a beautiful way of You talking about add the pizzazz.

You add the you to it. It gives you the, you know, the basics and that's that's a lovely lovely way to Yeah.

Because we don't make paper from scratch and pencils from scratch so we can write. So it's a sort a similar thing. We our tools already exist. It's a tool.

Okay. Now there's another aspect of to dos and to doing your to doing your to dos, which is that for many, myself included, I, a part of ADHD, have massive memory problems. And we actually recently had a clinical clinical psychologist write in saying, who's particularly pleased with how we described ADHD. And he said, I said, I thought I'd got ADHD because I was having such trouble with my memory, and I've just been diagnosed with with dementia. But I I now really understand how difficult it is for people with ADHD. I found it pretty hard, frankly, hearing my world being being matched to someone with dementia.

But certainly the lived experience of massive memory problems is, like, it's not actually that uncommon for people to go thinking they've got dementia and find out they've got ADHD. And Yeah. Yeah. So I write it all down on the list. And my list gets wildly overwhelmed. And I think it's one of the reasons why the have you tried a list doesn't work. So what's your how do you stop the lisd becoming too long, becoming overwhelmed? Who who wants to take that first?

Oh, I'd love to, if I may. Sorry. Yeah. I so go. ADHD like oh. So I think this is about content management for lack of a better word. It's knowing what to do with a piece of information when we get it and where where does it fit in our system. Because sometimes we we write things down because the the the actual, you know, the task of writing it down is what has us remember it. So whenever we're gonna go back to that, whenever we're gonna look at it, it's the fact that we're writing it down that's going to to have us log it, if you will. And sometimes we actually wanna keep it. We wanna keep it for reference and, like, I have that with articles and things that.

I I think make a good point. Wanna keep them. I might wanna share them with a client. I might wanna use them to to, share on social media or something. So I have then a place for that. And and this so this is where I think you know what we're talking about? There isn't a one singing and dancing system that does everything. But what I encourage people to do is create a map of the systems that you use with the use cases. How you create this map? It's up to you. I use a digital mind map. You can just, you know, do it on a piece of paper. But understanding what your use cases are for the various different systems that you use help you then when you have incoming information that you wanna keep or you wanna remember.

And then you have a process kind of where am I gonna put that so that I know where it is. Because, essentially, what the the system needs to do or the map needs to do is when you think, oh, hang on. Didn't I do something about that? Haven't I got you know where to go because there's a process of where you're putting stuff. That's that's my wise words on that.

That's what I Honestly, like, I had I thought that was I had my little epiphany moment of, like, the the given to you by given to you by you, that that idea of having a map to map your processes so you can have that that awareness of them and also awareness of the gaps. I also use the bucket approach. So there are things which aren't gonna be done today, tomorrow, and the near future that need to just go into a bucket to be referenced potentially later, but it's not for now. And but they don't go on my core list because they are not a core thing that's happening right now. And that and that has has been very substantial.

Your map is you have your buckets, and then you have your list. When So something comes in, you kinda know if it goes in a bucket or whether it's go yeah. That's and I think that But I I think the map provides you with more clarity on it. Like, I I'm gonna be making a map in the near future. I I do have a very satisfying mind map of my things. I do love the map idea.

Yeah. I I I have to say earlier today, I I was on had another call coming up, I was like, where have I written the notes for it? Because I put them somewhere different where I would normally put them in a sort of a very classic example of not being able to find it and just kind of going, I've done this. I don't wanna have to do it again. So and I did find them. If I'd put them if I'd had a map and I've been putting them in the the different places, it'll be fine. Yeah. I also kind of have a space. Mean, that's what I call my ideas barn essentially is the is the place for the stuff that I don't need now. I might wanna action action or or I I might might wanna wanna do later or might wanna reference later. So got those spaces.

So it's it's essentially like, I'm not gonna lose that because I know where it is. I can go back to it. And also building in sometimes to go back and review what's in there. Mhmm. So and then you can go, oh, wow. That was a really good idea. It wasn't right then, but let's do that now. Or Yeah. What was I thinking? That's fine. I don't need that anymore. Don't think we're ever gonna need that idea.

I think that's very interesting that though, that commonality of like there's a place for stuff to get dropped that is is for the not nows, and that is interesting. The other we've talked about eating the frog. We've talked about, you know, the not nows. The other piece of advice people get often is just do it now. And the with faulty focus, I find that can be dangerous. Like, it can be really good because I've got faulty focus. If I do it now, it's done. And so I do use this technique, but I also find it dangerous because then I find I blink. It's 3PM, and I've done a lot of that and not a lot of the others. So how do you manage that? And who wants to take that first?

I think there's some we've we've maybe touched on some of those things as well already in terms of being able to build in breaks and thinking of, like, actually, I'm gonna do this now. I've got we might not know how long it's gonna take us, but, actually, there's the point where we could stop on this task and and saying, when is that? And then, actually, that's the point where we want to have something that will interrupt us because we know that we're nearly there. But, again, I think this also comes down to how much energy we've got, what we're feeling like at the time. So some days I will go, oh, look. I'm in the kitchen. I've got.

There's all these things to do in the kitchen. I'm just gonna empty the dishwasher, and then I'm gonna do this. And I'll go from things to because they're there, but I know that it's okay because I've got time. It's as when you say, Henry, when you don't you know, you get into something and you get into hyperfocus and then the time suddenly is gone that's problematic. And I think that's where it can be really helpful to if we can think, yeah, I'm just gonna do it now, but I've got I I need to create a little buffer for myself to nudge me to say it's time to have a break or there's something else coming up or I need to I need to stop, pause, shift.

Thank you. Talking of pausing and shifting.

Nice little pause there. Tina, over to you.

Yeah. So I think it's can be really handy to have some rules over the just do it now. Because I think there is a balance. Like, when we have a task and it's actually gonna take you longer to put it on the list than to do the thing. But equally, if we're supposed to be doing something else, sometimes the shininess of just, like, a quick task, it we sort of welcome it too much because actually we procrastinate on something else, and we've gotta watch that as well. But I think a lot of it also comes from maybe not feeling that we have complete autonomy over our our systems. Like, we don't trust ourselves that we are gonna remember or that we are gonna do it later.

So it's almost a fear of I'm I'm not sure that I'm ever gonna do this unless I do it now because it might just get lost in my systems or I might forget, etcetera. And I think that's where, you know, getting to know yourself, which is obviously a lot of what we do with coaches, getting to know yourself and how you work and then finding strategies that work better with your brain, with kindness, that is really what gets us that we feel like we have more autonomy over, being able to make things happen in a way that we want them to happen.

So once we understand ourselves better, we're able to kinda take that task and sort of go, right. I'm gonna do it now or it goes here and it's fine because I trust me and I trust my systems and I know how I work. I I think a lot of it, the the fear of of what do I do with this thing comes from the fear of it's just gonna get lost or we're gonna forget. Does that make sense?

As and also I'm thinking of this the while you're talking, I'm thinking about the shoulds because those shoulds are there. We should do this. So often the push is not the, like, you know, just do it now and that'll be better for us. Often it's a should. So we've got, like, a, like, a a shove rather than we've got a we've got a stick rather than a carrot, in the way there. So, yes, it might feel good when you've done it, but you might equally get into, like, a situation which isn't helpful for you when you, as you say, when you can be doing something else. So it's Yes. Understanding that the thing that works for you and understanding your brain, what works with your brain, as you say, with kindness, but also recognizing.

That we're often driven by external factors based on the world that we've grown up in and our environment. One.

Thing I do personally is actually I I have a category of tasks that are called sort of quick fire task, which are those tasks. But then so when I have a moment and I I can't sort of do deep work because it's not that kind of time slot, I then look at my quick fire tasks. And what it gives me then is is a menu of lots of different quick fire tasks, and I can sort of pick and choose which ones I wanna do, which gives me a little bit of dopamine and and that's often how I work those little tasks as well. But it means I have a little bit more confidence as well in myself and my systems when that quick task comes through, that it has a place in my list or system, but also in my calendar as it were. Yeah. So I dare to do it, if you will.

Right. We've got we've got to wrap up people. We're coming we've we've we've to the end. It's been like you're both extraordinary insightful, and I I think the fact you come from different perspectives is brilliant, and it gives the idea of that. I've been offline trying to put together a summary of this, so wish me luck.

That is a tool that can help you with summaries. Yes.

This is. I love that. I also had not got AI on the list, so that that'll happen in a sec. So final thoughts, people. What what what would you like to leave people with as a sort of final thought? Who wants to go first? I'll.

I'll go. I think getting to know yourself before going out there and shopping for systems and solutions because marketing messages will always tell you what you wanna hear. So spend a bit of time getting to know yourself and accept that what you like will likely change. And, like, allow flexibility in the systems rather than consistency. Go with the shift. Go with the flow. That's mine.

Yeah. I'm I'm always Tina there, but also just to add, that element of kindness and kindness to yourself. So when you're having a day where things don't go don't don't necessarily go to plan, and your systems don't feel like they're for you today. It's a day, and there there's often lots of other circumstances about that. So if you can just show some kindness to yourself, it makes it easier then to get up the next day and do the things you want to do then.

Sad to know. You're amazing.

Thank you. Anj of ADHD with Anj, Tina Squire of adeptina.com, you're both amazing. And genuinely, you know, I have really, really loved this segment. To doing the to dos is, you know, one of the major issues for people with ADHD. And we've we've only got an hour, so we've only been limited in that, I just brilliant. So thank you so much both. I'm gonna attempt to wrap this up. Okay? So I guess we'll see a few reactions. So I think what we said was know yourself, know your goals, map it out so you know your processes, you know you've got a schematic of what to do, you've got a better better clarity of that. Recognize the variability and so don't throw something out just because it doesn't work at one time.

Being aware of time and the judicious judicious use of timers, that sort of looking at time and and using it either for to create interruptions for yourself or using it to help you incentivize to to get going on something and to give yourself that sort of those sort of bumpers for that. Have a plan for the not now, so the things that you know you can't do now. And I think we we all seem to have the same system of having a a somewhere where we can save it for later, but it doesn't incur into our main main list. The last two, recognizing it, this is a constant experiment. Like, we're trying to be better every day, every week, every month. And and the last one, which is from both of you.

Was particularly just spoken to you very much, is being kind. Kind processes and being kind to yourself because this is tough, and it's difficult. Guys, you've been wonderful. I genuinely have really, really enjoyed this, and I've learned a lot. We have to say goodbye, so thank you.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Been brave. Brilliant.

And that's me signing out to the next segment. Yeah. Thank you for joining, and thought that was a wonderful segment. It's really open up the discussion, that conversation, that big talks on starting that framework, what what it means to be successful into doing the.