I want to, I wanna give space now to your wonderful education panelists that have joined, and I can see them waiting backstage. So without further ado, what I'm gonna do, Melanie, so that I'm going to try and manage this smoothly is I'm gonna bring people on screen. And if you could introduce them as you know them, I would I would really appreciate that. Alright. Here we go. Here is Trish. Hi, Trish.

Hi. How are you?

Hello, Trish. Feel free to add in to add anything, but Trish is pretty much the director of OLT in Australia. She's a former educator, so has more than two decades, I think, of experience in working in the education system. So has, yeah, lots of valuable contributions that have been made to the OLT program itself and maintaining all the content of the OLT programs and updating it on a very regular basis. Anything else, Patricia?

It was great it was great to see you do the presentation. Sadly, it's more than a couple of decades because I'm quite old, but, I do I welcome the opportunity to be part of the panel. As Melanie said, I represent OLT here in Australia. I've retired from working for New South Wales Department of Education a few years ago now. I'm really pleased to work with education systems around the country on the OLT work. So what a great global conference you've got going. Excellent work. Good to join you.

Thanks, Trish. And then we have Nikki Johnson in the pink. I don't think you guys are labeled. I actually haven't had the pleasure of meeting Nikki, but I'm sure that we'll be chatting after this conference in-depth. But sorry, Nikki. All I know about you is that you are an educator and also an author and have written many books on neurodiversity, including ADHD. Anything else that's crucial that you'd like to add?

And I'm also a parent of And a parent. Yes. An advocate and the squeaky wheel.

Terrific. And then we have Katrina Sheraton Yu who is from Possibility. Katrina has a background in education and also a lot of sort of clinical skills. So she's one of those rare people that has the education and sort of health side of things. Is there anything else that you wanted to add, Katrina?

I guess I just have many roles being a mom of two ADHD boys as well and have the psychology and education to try and parent them with as well.

Absolutely. And Katrina has I've even seen firsthand with my son, she's done amazing things with a lot of children that have literacy and numeracy difficulties and filling in gaps and helping them to engage in their learning. She does terrific work. We might hear a little bit more about that or at least be reflected in the questions that we have today. And then we have the wonderful John Starkey, who I met this year. So John is currently studying to be a clinical neuropsychologist at Macquarie University. He's one of my students and is going to be doing some research himself into ADHD.

John Thanks for having me, guys.

Anything else you wanted to add there?

That sums it up pretty nicely.

Okay. So I have been sent a list of questions that I think have come from all sorts of directions across at least Sydney, possibly Australia. I can throw the question out there and have a guess at who might be able to answer this, and maybe we can do it in alphabetical order. But the first question I have here is how can parents help schools shift from a behavioural to a problem solving approach, particularly in high school? So my guess is, Katrina, you might be able to kick start that question.

Hi. Look. Obviously, working with children of all ages, one of the frustrations that parents have is that their children are often getting in trouble for challenges that their experience associated with their ADHD. And that can be anything from being kept in to finish work, but right through to repeated suspensions because of impulsive behavior or misjudgment of the situation. So I think that there's a need to recognize, and help teachers learn that negative responses have no benefit to children that are struggling. And I guess I wanna give a bit of insight to parents on how to help shift teachers and shift schools and even maybe shift their own thinking.

From my child is being naughty or my child needs to be punished to how we can best help help them. So I guess, the first thing is to to know that the research definitely supports a positive approach to any behaviors that are unhelpful. But further to that, there's new approaches where it's about collaborating to problem solve situations.

And so the first step as a parent, I think, is to obviously approach the school and request a meeting with, I always talk about finding out who the power players are at the school. And when you're talking about policies and systems in a school, you need to make sure that you have the leaders there, not just the teachers, but the teachers also need need to be involved. And I think the first thing I'd be asking is, you know, what are the current adjustments that are being made for my child on the playground as well as in the classroom, and what are the challenges that exist even though those adjustments.

Are being put in place. And and I think it's important to then listen to what the teacher says. And then what we wanna do is help them reframe their language. And if they say they keep calling out, we wanna shift that to, well, they're having difficulties waiting for their turn or they're having difficulties, you know, following that specific expectation. And if we can use the language the child is having difficulties with, and we can really identify what is the challenge that they're having that is most likely associated with ADHD, whether it be difficulties with self regulation, difficulties with decision making, difficulties with planning and organizing or managing distractions.

And then we wanna sort of get the teacher to reframe their understanding of my child's actually struggling with that on the playground or in the classroom. And then, obviously, we wanna, you know, make suggestions for how to how to manage those difficulties. And that's the first step. And then, obviously, the second step is to work together to come up with solutions that address the difficulty rather than focusing on the the behavior.

Amazing. That was very comprehensive. Thank you so much. Am thinking, Nikki, I might ask you a different question. So another one we have here is, can a child with ADHD be be included into a mainstream classroom?

And yes, they can. It does take a village like every other thing that we have to do. It takes more than one person. Having just being an advocate for my son in primary school, so he's just started high school this year. The school as a whole, it's really important that, again, that they have understanding and grace. And I think, as you said, about the language being used is really, really important. And the other thing that I think helps in primary school years is the children learning the language to use to speak to the teacher and having that so that it also encourages the self esteem and also encourages self advocacy, which is really, really important so that they're not actually taking it on board and it's building them up inside.

The mental health and well-being of ADHD child is just battered and bruised.

Absolutely. Seems like we've got some similar opinions. Thank you very much. And John, I might move to you. So I've got kind of one or two part question. How did your undiagnosed ADHD impact on your experience at school? Can you perhaps share your personal journey at school without an ADHD diagnosis? Because I understand that you had a late diagnosis well into adulthood.

Yeah. That's right. So I suppose having an undiagnosed ADHD really did have profound impact on my school. I I had quite a quite a high IQ, so I excelled in primary school without having to try too hard. And, actually, I was looking through my old school records and ironically had a merit award saying I was a fantastic listener. I even became the student who teachers would, you know, move the hyperactive or disruptive peers next to in the hopes that it would help regulate their own behavior, not knowing that I had this undiagnosed inattentive ADHD. It although maintaining a relatively good behavior by sort of year five, teachers started commenting that I had an inability to to work without direct supervision or without disturbing my peers.

And I actually I remember being year six captain, which involved running and taking notes during SRC meetings, but I just couldn't take the meeting in. You know, I'd be looking out the window or getting lost in my own thoughts and just couldn't focus on on what the heck they were saying to even be able to take the notes. But for me, my real difficulty started in high school. Trying to manage a class schedule meant having to rely on my friends to remember where we had to be next and what class that actually was. In the the classroom, if I had a friend to joke around with or maybe had a cute girl to annoy, I would be able to sort of get through the lesson. But for the most part, I really struggled to stay engaged.

Often fighting to stay awake rather than being hyperactive, and couldn't focus during a lesson, which was a really confusing time for me. And as as Katrina was mentioning earlier, that if I did manage to focus long enough and raise my hand to answer a question, I'd be full of stress trying to remember what the answer was, just trying to repeat it in my head over and over again, and then they, you know, finally get to my hand, and I would forget what it was. And that kind of made me either blurt out the answer straight away so I wouldn't forget, or I would just internalize and and sort of retreat into my shell. Homework was definitely a consistent challenge as well. This.

Certainly wasn't due to, you know, a refusal to complete the assignments or homework, but it was more just being excited to play sports or or video games and just losing track of time or just forgetting to actually remember that I had homework. I ended up missing huge chunks of of school in high school, which led to just refusing to attend at all. And I actually completed my year 10 school certificate via distance education. This created some other struggles, which was, you know, just being up on the computer at 2AM with my mom sitting next to me, acting as my frontal lobe, trying to make sure I stay on task and be able to actually get the sentences out of my head that I needed to to put down on to pay because that was a.

Really frustrating and confusing thing to try and describe to someone when I, you know, I was a I was a kid and didn't know what was going on. I I grappled with a pervasive sense of being unmotivated. It was it was a label that affected my self identity. Growing in a high achieving family, particularly with a a brother who I idolized made me feel like I was I was just lazy and should be doing better despite feeling like I was I was really trying as hard as I possibly could. This actually led to a diagnosis of depression and not feeling like I really belonged anywhere. So the undiagnosed ADHD, it it really created a a constant struggle throughout my schooling years. It it hampered my ability to to manage tasks and and maintain focus.

And really created, like, a a significant misconception, I think, of of who I am and and what I should be capable of as a student.

I think that there are people in the chat saying that they're really resonating, and it's comforting to hear that they've had similar stories, or their children have had similar stories. So thank you so much. Can I just ask whether your academic experience has changed at all now that you have insight into diagnosis that you're studying at university?

It has had a profound change on my academic journey. So I started a bachelor of psychology, and, you know, kind of kind of want to learn a bit about more more about myself and potentially be able to help others in my first semester of uni. I still didn't have the diagnosis and and and was getting sort of passes and and and credits in my, units. And then halfway through the year, I received my diagnosis after looking at, a lecture on ADHD. It was kind of mind blowing to say that, it's is this person actually talking to me right now? Is this about me? And getting medicated and having some some understanding of what was going on led to HDs and ds and.

Ended up doing psych honors and and now being accepted into a master's of of clinical psychology. It's it's really changed the the trajectory of my life and, you know, hopefully, actually leading to to masters and PhD scholarship in in ADHD research.

Terrific. Thank you, John. I'm I'm really pleased to hear that you're having more positive experiences now. Trish, I have a question for you. Information for parents and families is also important. What can be done to support them with relevant and accessible learning?

Yeah. Absolutely. And just hearing John's story just reinforces, I think, what I would like to say on that because the importance of having the that student voice, the voice of the child, both when they're young, but also listening to adults reflecting back is really critical because they're the people who can teach those of us who are trying to teach. That's something that, I thought while I was working in in the education profession as well as I do now because if we don't listen to what children say and we don't listen to what the adults say about when they were children, we're not gonna be able to help move things forward. And and that also means information for parents because I think it's important we don't assume.

That all parents who have a child who may have ADHD has a good understanding or insight into that because not everyone does because why would we? We're not you know, we don't become parents with a manual. And I think that's a real challenge for for a parent. It's important that we make sure things are accessible in every sense that that there's no financial boundaries towards them accessing the information that they need and also that there's no other type of barriers that get in the way. So making sure that what we offer for parents is relevant and helpful for them and helps to give the parents the confidence that they can have conversations both with their children, but also with the people in in school. You know.

It it can be when you're in school and many people who'll be joining the conference today will be in school. It can be daunting when if you don't know much about a field and a parent wants to talk to you about their child about particular need or disability, that can be really daunting and scary and daunting and scary for the parents. So we need to try and get ourselves to the point that we're providing the right type of information and education for the parent and for the educators in school. So they've got a common language and they're not feeling that they've got parents don't feel they've got to fight which is a term that happens so often and teachers and schools don't feel they have to be defensive.

And that that's very important to me that we bring people together once we've we've enabled them to have some learning in the field. I think that's really critical. I may have gone off your topic, Melanie, off the question, but they're they're really important things for me and certainly for for OLT, making sure that we make those things possible for parents and for schools.

Absolutely. Thank you, Trish. I have another question here. Maybe we'll start with you, Katrina. How can technology be used to support children with ADHD?

Yeah. I think this is obviously something that's becoming more accessible and more common. The tricky thing with technology is the kids know more than us. So teachers are sometimes daunted and they don't feel confident enough to initiate and lead the implementation of technology. But I guess my advice is for children and parents to explore a lot of different options at home so that the children can then self advocate in the school. So some of the suggestions that we we use technology for, obviously, they can be used to reduce the cognitive load on learning tasks. So we can use assistive technology for reading and writing such as speech to text, text to speech, predictive spelling, editing software such as Grammarly.

These are the most common uses to just reduce the load on the child's cognitive functioning so that they can actually focus on the on the task. And one of my favorite apps, or a series of apps are the mind mapping apps. And I think, we know that children with ADHD benefit from chunking tasks and breaking tasks down and giving them time in the planning phase to mind map. And mind mapping helps them structure ideas. And inspiration maps is one that's definitely worth exploring, because it allows you to transfer the mind map to a pages or Word document so that you don't have to retype everything out in the in the planning phase. So it's just some other ways. Obviously, note taking. I, have been using.

AI to listen to professional development courses and take notes for me. And that has helped me focus on the listening so I don't have to be doing the writing. And so if you can use that for children in high school or even university students, if they can start to use AI to note take, then all of their energy can go into that learning and and listening. There are definitely apps that you can turn off distractions such as Freedom or Cold Turkey. Particularly for our teenagers, they can use those apps when they're studying to turn off pop ups such as messenger and, TikTok or whatever's coming up on their computer. And there are also apps to help time management.

Both in checklists and and to do lists, but also Pomodoro style apps. There's one called Pomodone, which can break their study sections up into those short bursts, which is recommended for children with ADHD. So, yeah, lots of ways that we can I'm sure there's more. I'm not a technology expert, but there's some practical things we've used.

Terrific. So we have maybe time for two more questions. I'm gonna throw one at Nikki and one at Trish. Maybe we'll start with Trish and end on you, Nikki, because I'll give you a bit of warning that I did a bit of a Google and saw that you've written some So amazing I was hoping you might be able to tell us a little bit about some of those and other books that might be great to help children understand their condition or advocate or whatever else. So giving you time to formulate that one. Trish, I'll give you one more question. What are the issues facing educators when it comes to getting access to professional learning?

Oh, goodness. Yes. There are quite a few, but I hope we should be present a negative picture. But there are some challenges if you're working in a school, particularly, would say the balance of competition around professional learning. Because when you're working in a school, be it primary school, high school, school for special needs students, there are a lot of competitions competition on your time for professional learning. So you've got the curriculum based type of PL around requirements of the curriculum on your own particular area as well as the whole school approaches to professional learning. And then you've got what the different needs of the students you might be teaching.

May have and how do you find the time to keep up to date with all that PL. What's positive is that in Australia, I think in almost every state and territory, teachers are required to have continuous professional learning over that that five year period to maintain their accreditation. So there's a requirement there. It's ensuring that they've got the time available is the first one with those competing issues. And then I think another key one is how do you know about the efficacy of the PL you might be taking? You know, how do you know if it's gonna be good and it's gonna be worth your time and have an impact on your learning, on your practice, on your ability to teach that range of students.

In in my experience, the more the whole school approaches are the most effective where you've got staff in the school working together to do a course, be it one of our courses or a course provided by another provider because then you get that impact on on school and practice. And I think the efficacy and can I trust it, is it recommending appropriate methods, That sort of thing is really key as I've said? Teachers look at the ones that are accredited and they're usually the ones that will give them that confidence that it's worth their time.

And hopefully, they haven't had to ask the question, is it worth the money? Because hopefully, individual teacher isn't having to bear the cost of that in most states and territories these days. That would be supported by their employer, and that's really what a teacher wants to be looking at. They don't want to have to go off on their own and spend money doing something away from the school site because generally, research, if you look at the research from ATSIL, Australian Institute of Teaching and School Leadership, that would show that the most effective professional learning is that what takes place close to where you learn with the people with whom you're working. So that's usually where you have the greatest impact.

But there are real challenges and teachers sometimes do feel under pressure. You know, OLT, we might we offer like 12 different courses. Teachers don't have time each year to, you know, do a course on ADHD and a course on autism and a course on supporting student behavior. So they've got to really think about where their priorities are as they build up build up that learning profile on top of their day to day, you know, work in in the classroom. So it's it's it's a balance between your individual interests and what you wish to learn as an educator and the needs of you and the students you're teaching and the needs of your whole school.

And and the schools that do that best are schools that have a whole school policy on professional learning. They look at the needs of their students and they look at the priorities. When it comes to students with additional learning needs and disabilities, they look at things like the NCC data, so the national consistent collection of data on school students with disabilities. That's a a national Australian program and the schools will know where their needs are year on year and an effective school will look for professional learning to meet those needs and plan that ahead as part of their school development planning. So that, know, it shouldn't be up to just the individual teacher to go find the course.

It should be part of the school plan because that's more supportive for the school and for the students because as you know, students move on to different teachers on different years And it can be very frustrating as a as a parent if the child that the school that year provides a teacher who really works really well with you and seems to understand the needs of those students. And then the next year, it's, whoops, we've got to start again. So if you have a whole school approach, you don't have that problem because their internal transition planning and their professional learning approach means you've got that covered. So, yeah, I could talk for hours on that, but I'll I'll stop now. Thanks, Melanie.

Thanks, Trish. Nikki, I'll just throw over to you if you could tell us a little bit about some of the books that you've written and maybe others that you might have come across and how they might be helpful.

Yes. So the books that I've done, I'm a children's book author and illustrator. My very first book actually was on the topic of anxiety because as you know, with ADHD, there are a lot of other factors that come into play as well. So there's learning difficulties, there's anxiety, mental health issues, things like that. So one of the books that I wrote, the very first one is called Go Away Mr Worry Thoughts. And this one I actually wrote, I've got four boys and this one I actually wrote for my eldest son who is currently as an adult now being diagnosed with ADHD as well after my youngest son was diagnosed with ADHD. Although they were very, very different in their presentation of it. Another book that I had was called Actually I Can.

And this one both of those books I wrote and illustrated. Actually I Can is the I guess is the the way of getting rid of the what if questions that that we have when we have anxiety. And this one is it's called the incredibly busy mind of Bowen, Bartholomew, Crisp. So there is the definitely, the very long heading title is deliberate because it is actually about my youngest son whose name is Bowen, not Bartholomew Chris, but Bowen. And it basically, John, mirrors your your primary school. And and in this story, we have the positivity of one teacher, one person who just changes it up to allow that strength and creativity to really shine through. And interestingly, my son was in grade six last year and for book week, he dressed as himself.

And this was an amazing way for him to go into his class because there's lots of amazing words in this book. The book is actually written by Paul Russell. And in there, he went in and the kids in there went, wow. Is that how many thoughts you have all the time? I can't believe it. And that opened up a whole lot of social awareness and acceptance and diversity. So, you know, that just melted my heart. So some other books that we have used, because we have this saying called too many words, too many words, can't have too many words. I lose myself is, of course, the the book All Dogs Have ADHD, which, of course, is the the visual pictures. He loves that book. On top of that, we also have the dyslexia, dysgraphia.

And the additional learning difficulties all in there. So there's other books that we've written around I've, you know, got around creativity. And I just find that it's a great topic for teachers to use to normalise the language about differences in kids and how other kids go, oh my goodness, that's me. And, they can identify. And as we know with diversity, if a child can see themselves in a book, they're heard, they're valued and they mean something because they're in a book, whatever diversity that is. So, yeah, I've I've had I have got a lot of joy out of the book out of the books that I've done on a whole range of issues for kids.

Amazing. Thank you, Nikki. I think that's the best thing ever dressing as yourself for book weight.

No. Terrific. Yeah. So.

I've just been told that there's a bit of a delay with the next speaker. So we're gonna perhaps open up another question or two. As part of the focus groups that we're running and the teacher guidelines that we're writing in our collaboration, we will be focusing a bit on how ADHD students can access the literacy and the numeracy curriculum. So one of the questions here is sort of we'll open it up to everybody. Maybe you can wave and I'll just choose one of you. A few of you might have some responses. But it is, what are some common ways that ADHD affects academic achievement and performance? Who would like to start with that question?

I'm happy to, Mel. Thanks, Katrina. That's alright. Look. I think it's multifaceted. I think the most basic understanding that teachers assume is that it's about concentration so that a child in the classroom is impacted because they struggle to take everything in and pay attention. But I think that's on the very surface level. I think when we look at the differences in the way that they process information, the difficulties affect them well beyond that. So I think some of the the key things that maybe people that are are less known is difficulties dividing their attention.

So that means that if a teacher is talking to them while they are doing a work sheet or while they are doing something, being able to take both in at the same time is is very challenging. And, obviously, that's the same if their friend is over the corner talking about the party on the weekend, being able to listen to that conversation, which is more interesting and do their work is also very, very challenging. Whereas other kids might be able to do both at once. I think another thing that I'll probably emphasize is shifting. So shifting is the speed or the efficiency that a brain can swap from one thought or task or concept to another.

And I think that there is so many times during the day, in each task, in a lesson that we request the children to shift. So it's not just about transitions in between lessons. It's also if you have a page of mixed calculations, if they have to go from addition to subtraction to multiplication, just for their brain to shift in that way is really tricky. Or even if they are expected, to do a a comprehension task and you've got one question that's about a fact in detail, and then suddenly they have to give a justification or explanation, just shifting processes can be really tricky. So I think the strategies we need to then put in place is to.

Give them time for these things and scaffold and support. So give them time to shift, give them time to plan, and think about how we present the work. So, yeah, I've got some more, but maybe some other people have some ideas and you can come back if you need to.

Thank you. Trish?

I think they're really interesting points that you make there. I think as well I think back to my days in the classroom when I was a school psychologist, one of the things that lots of children were finding difficult who have ADHD was getting involved particularly around literacy when it was a topic that wasn't of interest to them. You know, if there wasn't that sort of personal level engagement I mean, all students do have that to a certain extent that, you know, if it doesn't interest them, they might not be motivated to engage with it. But but for students with ADHD, I always found that to be an even more of an issue for them, how to get for them to get a hook into that. And if they didn't have that, then their ability to engage with it.

Was really problematic, particularly as they got older because they didn't see the need therefore to to do it. And and I often found that very difficult to support teachers with what strategies can you put in place and and how can you think about the text that you're using in the classroom to ensure you've got a range of text for a range of students on different days at different times that might that might they might wanna engage with and having some alternatives. Because there often hasn't been thought that there is a time to have alternatives, so everyone must use the same text to do the work. But actually, with a bit more thought in our planning as teachers.

We don't have to all have everyone be focused on the same text or the same area of interest. So I I couldn't comment on that in terms of numeracy, particularly, but certainly with literacy, that was always and still continues to be a problem. And with a higher number of boys that traditionally have been identified as having ADHD, although we know that's an issue often of of missed or lost diagnosis with girls. But with those boys, that was often a real challenge because the techs were not ones that they were interested in. So I think there's a lot that we could do still when we look at in making sure we've got some level of interest in order to get engagement.

Yeah. Absolutely. You know, if they're not engaged, then the impact on their literacy is is really significant.

Yeah. There's some great points made there. And I think putting my clinician hat on and and speaking to the the parents and the the students out there with ADHD, don't be afraid to push for things to be changed, for text to be modified, like text to be changed or work to be modified. Know your legal rights with what you can and can't ask for. The same thing happens a lot with examination provisions. So at least in Australia, we can ask for anything as long as it's backed up by, you know, evidence and a professional saying that a student needs those things. And I've heard of many students and even parents saying, oh, you know, they were refused the special provisions that.

Had been granted on this particular day because they may have been a relief student or sorry, a relief teacher. So, yeah, advocating in that way as well, I think, is important. We have somebody that's joined us, believe, Martin. I.

Hope I hope you don't mind me jumping in. I'm vice chair on ADHD Australia, and I have just loved your chat. And I and I had a question because I have two teenagers with ADHD, and both of them have struggled in school. And I I put this out to all of you. Like, what would you tell a child or a teen with ADHD who's in school and they're really struggling? What's the kind of advice that that kind of, I guess, the hope at the end of the the rainbow that says it's gonna be okay? What what would you say? And, John, I'm gonna ask you first because your story really, really resonated with me.

What would you say that it's going to be okay? Knowing that having we all have challenges in life, and we all have have strengths and weaknesses, and it doesn't make you different. And that you can still there's nothing stopping you from living living your dreams and having a good life. The thing that really changed my perspective on everything was finally being diagnosed and knowing that other people are going through the exact same experiences. Things that I thought were were really specific, like not being able to get these thoughts out of my head onto paper were common across other individuals that I that I spoke to. And I think that really opened up my mind to the possibilities of having a successful life, just having that commonality.

With other individuals and knowing that I'm I'm not alone.

Absolutely. That's great. I think for me, I've had lots of conversations with my son, and he's in year six, as I mentioned, about to go into high school. But sometimes the school system can be a bit inflexible, and it's you know, they're trying to fit square pegs into round holes and and wanting all kids to be the same. But I think as you sort of get older, people tend to celebrate that difference. And at school, I I say to my son that it requires you to concentrate and requires you to sit still, to plan and organize time, and they're all things that are really hard for kids with ADHD. But as he gets older, he'll be able to choose.

Some of the things that he does and play to his strengths a lot more. Think it's just that it's really hard for kids with ADHD to play to their strengths at school, especially when there's a lot of inflexibility about what they can and can't do in order to learn content.

Yeah. I I wanted to jump in there too. I agree completely is is fan, you know, fan the flames of the spark, whatever the spark is. And for quite often, it's not things that are done in school. However, I you know, we made the decision to rather than to spend time on particularly for literacy and numeracy tuition outside of school because he was just who spent that we actually spent that time and that money in extending him so far.

And I know my son Bowen has always said to me, but, mom, what if, know, he wants to be an inventor. That's an engineering inventor. That's what he's going to be. And he said, but, you know, I can't write things down. I said, don't worry, darling. You'll have other people that can do that for you because that's what will happen. He will absolutely be in the point that number one he's interested in, number two is the spark and that he's extended in. So as a parent, that's what I've invested in in school and out of school, you know, times to shine, opportunities to shine. Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I was just gonna say another thing that's really important that I try to do with my boys is refer to people that we know within the family, but also in the community that have succeeded that have ADHD or neurodivergent. And, obviously, you know, I always refer to my dad who has ADHD, left school in year eight and nine and has been incredibly successful. And I actually tell all my clients, you know, the the richest people in the world have ADHD, and I'll list three or four of them. I'll go, don't worry. It's your key to it's your key to be the boss. And you'll be able to delegate everything else once you get there. So, yeah, using role role models that they can access, so family members as well as famous.

People as well.

Love it. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I remember my son's face lighting up when I told him that the same thing that it's not necessarily people that do great at school that become the most successful. And when I look back at my high school, it's actually, you know, a lot of the people that are really successful now and have big houses and lots of cars, those that didn't do so great academically. Obviously, there are those that do great academically as well that do successfully, but it's not a requirement of success to do great and get, you know, perfect grades at school. And and, of course, we know that.

You know, a lot of entrepreneurs have ADHD, and they're able to, you know, think fast and think think creatively, and often they go on to be incredibly successful in whatever, you know, way you deem success. I've got another question for you. You know, it feels as as not someone who works in the education system, you know, this is just someone who's been in education, has children in education system. Do we feel that the education system is doing enough to change to, I guess, you know, get with the time and recognize that there are different ways of doing and different ways of thinking? Yeah. Are we on that journey enough, do we think?

Who's brave enough, Tricia?

Good point, because I I don't work in any of the departments anymore. I've worked in education systems in The UK for many years, my whole life until in the last eighteen years, I was I was here working in public education. And so I guess I've got a lot of experience in that field, but I think it is very difficult for organizations like that to change quickly. And I'm not suggesting that the issues that we're raising haven't been issues for a while, so maybe they should have moved, you know, earlier. I think it is a very difficult, challenge, particularly in the current political climate with small p. There's so much going, on, not just around ADHD, but around other aspects of students with additional needs and disabilities.

And I think across the developed world, education systems are challenged by that in different ways, and some meet those challenges more readily than others. And I think that there is more of an understanding of diversity in a general sense. And so within that, we would be around gender, be around disability, be around race, be around Aboriginality, such a range of diversity that's currently recognized. So I think if I look back to when I was, you know, first a young teacher, yes, there's been significant change. Has it been enough? Probably not. Because we I think we are still at the point that we're looking at individuals as being different.

And we're looking at how we fit them into our system. I think we, you know, we we had a time when it was all about, you know, recognizing the needs of children and how we integrated them, and then we moved away and through that to recognizing the needs of children and how we include them. But but we're not really at the point of having a more universal approach that welcomes diversity and that our system can meet all of those needs. We're still looking at adapting. You know, we talk about learning adjustments, talk about those sorts of things which suggest we've got a set plan in place and we're making adjustments for those that don't fit it. Whereas, you know, we really need to be looking at having an education system.

That isn't just responsive to difference, but that welcomes it and can meet it in the school and in the classroom, that that is very challenging. That's not something that's going to be easily achieved. But I do think that we're lot further on than than we have been. I think the challenge for many educators is marrying that alongside the requirements of delivering a curriculum that's, you know, very crowded and very busy and has, you know, has certain requirements. And the challenge is, being able to deliver that and use that curriculum in a way that meets everybody's needs. So we don't have this is for most, and we adjust it for these few, but having a more universal approach to teaching, It's not an easy thing to achieve. No.

Never never said it was, Tricia. I do think that as educators more we're more receptive, but I do think, as the public, we ask and expect a lot quite rightly of education because that's fundamental. But but I do take on board what a lot of other people have said as well that, you know, when you leave school, you have so much more freedom. I know my own children said that to pursue your interests. The challenge for children with ADHD is that the things that they may be good at and they inspire them and interest them aren't often the things that day to day in the classroom they can show, and and that's a real challenge for the teacher incorporating that and what their strengths are in in the classroom daily. Some teachers do it really well.

We know that. But It's a lot of it's a lot of hard work to actually do that to consider kinesthetic.

Learners or, you know, learners who have to be interested in in sport and adapt that to their maths learning and things like that. I I I definitely get it. I think, though, what's interesting is we, you know, we say, hey. Hey, children with ADHD. It's okay. You know, you can go on to be really, really successful. But but while you're at it, you're gonna be in a school system that really doesn't quite fit for you. And you're probably without even knowing knowing it gonna be told that your HR is the most important thing even though everyone says it's not. But, actually, that's the kind of school system you can get into if, you know, in certain schools. So I think there's that there's that.

I guess, that challenge would be good even if not every school has to be, you know, accepting, but just that there could be newer types of schools that can say, hey. We do accept people who think differently and learn differently and, you know, need creativity and and are not looking for that traditional school system kind of, you know, straight out of school, straight into uni. I think that would be if there were options, I think that would help a lot of families who struggle with their children and their adolescents in in high in, you know, in.

I think you made a really good point there. And what worries me is that I think it's great to have different schools like that that are different and and and have those approaches. But what we can't and shouldn't accept is that children have to go through a lot of difficulty and pain to get to that point, and it shouldn't be that children have to find that schools failed them so they then go to that sort of school. We need to be really still working really hard to support our regular ordinary mainstream schools, be they public schools, Catholic system schools, independent schools to do better for the children that they're teaching so that we don't have to just have those quirky individual unique schools.

That often cost people a lot of money and are difficult to to find and often don't exist in some parts of the country because, you know, children should be having their needs met in the school that they've chosen or their local school, whatever that is. And I think that's that's a challenge for education. Yeah. Absolutely. Can I as Yeah, John? Yeah. So.

I I went to a sports high school because my whole goal in life is to play cricket for Australia. And I didn't actually mention this, but I didn't finish my HSC. I dropped out halfway through because I just couldn't couldn't take it anymore, couldn't handle the the structure and and and didn't have a why for finishing. I pursued personal training and cricket, traveled the world. It wasn't until I was 24 that I decided that I wanted to do my bachelor in psychology and then and now potentially looking at doing a PhD. So there isn't a one size fits all. And just because they may not get that perfect ATAR, which I agree they place way too high an emphasis on, there's still alternative pathways there, and you gotta gotta find your own route.

And and but I think the challenges for young people is that we we can say that to them, but they can't see beyond the next thing. So when all their friends are getting their HSE or their friends are getting their HR, that's when they go, well, I'm not. And what does that mean for me? And and success was, you know, in the back of my head, it was told, well, it's got to be going to uni or or achieving in that way. But I agree. There are many beautiful ways to get to where you wanna be in life, and I think it's just really making sure that, you know, people, young people, especially those with ADHD, know that. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that's where we had a bit of a discussion about this at our focus group.

But having mentors, people like John who have gone through with ADHD that are a bit older that can chat to the younger ones and, you know, explain it will be okay and, you know, there's this option and that option. I think that would be invaluable. I don't know if if that happened in many places, but I I see a lot of value brilliant idea.

Of of squiggly paths, you know, that that kinda go, oh, it's okay if I fail or I don't get there because I saw John talk and John like, wow. Look what John's done. And and, you know, and everything you tell me, John, you go, wow. That would really inspire young people. Do you ever talk at schools, John? You should consider it.

It's definitely something that Mel and I have been discussing recently. Some form of big brother program, I think, would help a lot students at school, especially if if sport or, you know, some sort of energy reducing activity is involved in it.

I think it could be a lot of lot of benefit for kids for sure. Yeah. Yeah. So certainly a lot of high schools I know in the New South Wales public system have a really good buddy program, and they're doing other systems too with older students, younger students buddied up. I've seen some real success in that, particularly where they've matched well with the needs of the younger child and an older boy or girl who's gone through that themselves. And that's not just the case in the New South Wales public system. That would be, the case in lots of systems. But whether or not they're able to tailor it well.

And have sometimes older, you know, young adults coming in who have gone through some of those pains and difficulties and can show that they've had their own successes, I don't know about that, but certainly buddy within the school they do. Some schools do do mentoring, so they've got older adults coming in. That's often lots of backup reading programs, etcetera. But it would be really exciting to match up some, you know, young adults with ADHD along with high school students, wouldn't it? That could be a really interesting piece of work, Mel. Amazing. Yeah. Absolutely.

So I've just had words that we have another ten minutes. I'm not sure what the delays are, but are there any pressing things that anybody on the panel would like to discuss? You can create your own question or, just let us know what the topic is. It might be a personal experience or a professional experience or something else.

Mel, can I just give a plug for the parent info course that we have on ADHD? Just while I'm here, it's just useful to to do that. It's not a question, but it'd be useful for the people who join the meeting. So, in LLT, we have as well as our work, is mainly with teachers and educators and the course on ADHD is one of the ones that we have that Mel is doing her research in. But we also have, a free course on ADHD for parents, in Australia, and it's developed with one of the ADHD advocacy groups in New South Wales and ourselves. In fact, we launched that course before we launched the teacher course. And that course, the course for parents, it's an information online. I wouldn't call it a course in a formal way.

But it's had over 8,000 people have enrolled in that course and since we made it available two and a half years ago. So it's just a good opportunity to make mention of it here that anyone any member of the public in Australia can do it. They just need an email address to to register for the course, and they can do it in five minute chunks, twenty minute chunks. They can sit and do it and take it takes about four, five hours, do it in one go if they wish. They can do it in any way that they like. They don't have to answer any questions. They don't have to pass any tests. It's just a course that's full of information for them, and it has some very nice parent and child interviews in there.

And people, if they don't know about it, just might might like to know about it. There's no cost involved, and it's just there as a community resource that we've developed as a as a company to accompany, the teacher course. But you don't have to wait until the teachers in your school have done our teacher course. You can just do the course that's for parents. So I just wanted to mention that. It's there on our website and freely available to anybody that wants to do it. About 2,000 people a year do the course.

Thank you, Tricia. We've just got a question in the livestream. Is that only in Australia? But that's not only in Australia, is it?

Well, it's on the Australian OLT website. If somebody is in the The UK, then they won't see that same version unless they register on the Australian site because The UK courses are written for The UK and the Australian ones are written for Australia. So if you're in Australia, you should go to our Australian site. And if you're in The UK, you're best to go to the UK site. If you're in another country, I guess you can sort of take a pick. But the Australian course for parents, is accessible. You don't have to be in Australia to do it, but it is written for and by Australians. So that's why I'm mentioning that here.

Thank you, Trish. And and just moving back to books, I know that there are some great books for parents as well that that people might be able to Google and consider. So Teri had a question I think for the whole panel.

Yes. I just want to we're going to wrap up now. And I guess I wanted to each of the panelists, I'd love you to leave us with an insight. Considering there might be parents of, you know, children and therefore students of ADHD, we might have students who've got ADHD, we might have educators. What's an insight or some, like, leaving thought you'd like to leave with them today?

I'll start if you like. I think we all need to aim for greater understanding and listening to the parents and the children, because I think we need to give the children a voice and to hear what they're finding hard, what their interests are, and then guide them to advocate for themselves. So, yeah, I think that the most important thing is for us to use the courses that are available, the wonderful books that that Mickey's written, and just keep striving to have understanding of what it's like for a child or adult with ADHD.

Absolutely. I completely agree, and my my leaving thought is also just trying to increase awareness, not only to educators, but to the general public. Because I still see in my own sort of personal experiences with Ollie at school and even just out in shopping centres and all sorts, that there's still not a lot of public awareness about ADHD. So that's something that I would really like to see people, even just as strangers explaining a bit about ADHD perhaps, and you know, the impacts and the experiences so that people really do have a bit more empathy and understanding.

I think what I would say to educators is don't be despairing. You can make a massive difference. You can make a really positive difference in the lives of the children that you teach and you work with. And, you can do a lot to educate yourself and improve your practice because we all have to improve our practice, you know, in in the work we do. So don't feel despairing when things aren't going well and keep talking to families and and children and you will things will get better. But but teachers do have that responsibility to provide the best possible education, and we have a legal responsibility to meet the needs of the students in our classrooms. It's not an optional thing. So to to do your work and do it as well as you can.

I think I'd like to, send a message to parents that have had trust and faith in yourself that you know your child and and advocacy for your child starts with you when they're young. And and it is really, really important. And don't expect the teachers to know all the answers because they don't. And not you know, there's no magic green button. I've been searching it for for a very long time, and it doesn't exist. So we just do the best you can do with the skills that you've got and always building those up too.

Can I just leave say say one last thing that is I'm very passionate about as well, seeing as a parent and also as a clinician and seeing a lot of parents that struggle? Like, it is hard to be a parent of a child with ADHD. It takes a lot of extra skill. It takes a lot of extra energy. So don't forget to look after yourselves and and practice self care is is probably something else that I would really like to say.

That's great advice too. And John?

I think in terms of talking to individuals with ADHD, I used to say that I have a soft heart. I was very, very sensitive as a child and didn't take rejection well. But remember that you're not unmotivated. You're not lazy. When you eat well, when you sleep well, when you exercise, and you find your why, ADHD can really be a superpower.

Wow. They were all amazing. Thank you. So powerful.

Oh my gosh. Thank you. Wow. Honestly, I am just blown away by the caliber of everyone here on this panel. Thank you so much. If I may explain, you did stay on for a little longer than expected but handled like absolute pros. And, honestly, I'm I'm just so grateful for the points of view that you've been able to share with us today. And I think self care, Melanie, was really beautiful, but superpowers as well, John. I think that that is just extraordinary. And, again, thank you so very much, Melanie. Your wonderful research. Can't wait to see the next chapter around that. And then everyone here on this call, thank you again. And and the glorious Terry, thank you very much for, for jumping in here as well. So thanks, everyone.