Right. We're off to it's off to Sarah and Robert. So Sarah was diagnosed with ADHD, 22 years and three years old, overcoming many challenges. She's now a JNC qualified youth worker, qualified counselor, accredited five step practitioner. She's several years experience working in the field of addiction and recovery in resident rehabilitation, custodial, and community settings. She's worked for GameCare for four years and now manages a team of specialist practitioners delivering their gambling support interventions across London. GameCare is a leading provider of gambling advice and information support. They treat up to 10,000 clients a year under its gambling support services, and they receive 40,000.

Calls to the National Gambling Helpline. So it's a big area. And we've got Robert Nimmon. Robert was diagnosed with ADHD at 21 years old. He knew he had it from a young age, but it's only when he started university he needed an official diagnosis. He started gambling related harm at around 20 years old before ADHD diagnosis, but didn't realize or understand the harm he was causing to himself or anyone for a number of years. He's been in recovery for four years. So we've gone from basically talking about alcohol recovery there, and we're now moving over. Hello, Sarah. Hello, Robert. Hello. How are you?

Good. Thank you. Yeah. Good to be here. I'm blown away by the by the guy earlier. He was he was amazing. I have to say I really advocate for the ice baths, Henry. You've got to get on that because they're amazing. Really, really amazing. No.

Not you as well.

Honestly.

It's the warm Robert, are you are you are you ice bathing? Like, is this something you do? He's quiet.

Can you hear us, Robbie?

Oh, me? No. I don't think ice baths. No.

Okay. Okay. Good. You're like you and I will stick together. This is a worrying trend. And most worrying aspect of it is that people seem to really think it's good, and it just might be. Right. Do wanna tell us about you guys? Like, Sarah, do you want to start? Tell us about you and what you're doing and.

Yeah. What you wanna tell people. So I'm I work for for GAMcare, and I started there in 2002 07/2019 working as a as a recovery practitioner. So working with people that were experiencing gambling, you know, at various different levels. And now I am have the privileged position of managing at the the London part of the London team. So all out there delivering interventions and support to people that experience gambling related harms, you know, all across London. And, actually, you know, is part of the national gambling support network. So, you know, there's it's a big, you know, umbrella of various different organizations supporting people around The UK. So that's a bit about me. I've diagnosed ADHD as you as you mentioned early.

And, yeah, I'm I'm here to to talk a bit about the link between gambling and ADHD. But I don't know if, you know, we wanna hear from Robbie before I go on anymore.

Well, let's hear from Robbie then. Let's talk about the link.

Yeah. So I would've maybe started camp in around 19, 20 years old, and it was just there's always, like, scratch cards on and off at the beginning. But then whenever I find that, that's when a bit really kicked off. I hadn't been diagnosed yet. I just haven't started gambling, but it was pretty evident from when I was young because I had the test done, but I felt like I didn't want to be deaf or anything when I was that young. So it was more inconclusive at that time. But, yeah, whenever I started planning that, it was about a year before I started uni, and it would have been within a year. It was just constant. One more time, one more time, but it's never one more. It was just a cycle telling myself I'll never do it again. But.

Then it was the next day that I feel and having all the best intentions of keeping it at a minimum, but I've always ended up at a maximum. But the ADHD diagnosis, it was 21 and started unique because I always needed extra time in exams in school because of it. So whenever they did the tests, they marked it inconclusive when I was a kid and I said he still needs. But when I started, basically said that, obviously, it's a bit more official. They need an official diagnosis. I wasn't worried about whether I would have it or not because I knew for a fact that I had it. It was just the back end on paper. But, yeah, the gambling took away all the negative emotions from ADHD, mood swings. It was just I was escaping my own reality, and it was.

Somewhat inner peace whilst I was there. But one of them was gone. It was just chaos, and all of your problems came back 10 times worse than they were before. And, yeah, one of the most difficult things to stop. I've made it here four years home, so I'm just taking one at a time. And yeah. Thanks.

Well, congrats on obviously, that's a huge congrats. Sarah, do you wanna talk to us about the link? And then it'd be interesting to ask Robert about, like, how he felt his ADHD intersected with the gambling. And we yeah. So over to you, Sarah. Yeah. Absolutely. So, I mean, in terms of kind of prevalence data, there's not loads.

We know a bit more about addiction, the link between, you know, other addictions and ADHD because because I I think, you know, there's been more research done essentially. I think it's a reasonably kind of new thing that people are thinking about. So there's not loads, but what we do know, from the studies that have been done. So, there it's approximately twenty percent of people that have an issue with gambling also have ADHD. And there was a study done in in Australia, in our treatment service, I think, in Melbourne. And what that found was was almost almost I think it was twenty four point nine percent of the people there that were seeking treatment from that service.

Screamed positively for ADHD. So weren't necessarily diagnosed with ADHD, but they certainly screamed positively. So that tells us that statistically, if you have ADHD, then you are more likely to to develop a gambling problem. Or if you gamble, then you're more likely to do so harm harmfully. So in terms of the link between gambling, ADHD, so, so we know that, you know, ADHD, obviously, you know, I'm sure I don't have to tell anyone here, but it's it's it's linked to a kind of deficit in dopamine. So, obviously, that's the the chemical that's responsible for focus, activity levels, pleasure, and motivation.

But it's also produced when we experience a reward, And that's the important part because gambling involves an intermittent reward system. So this is a reward that's delivered at regular in irregular intervals rather than at predictable continuous intervals. And these reward systems, these intermittent reward systems are extremely addictive. So the the the intervals are random, and this increases the anticipation of excitement around winning. So a lot of people would actually assume that the hook of gambling can be solely down to the financial rewards.

But clever imaging of the brain actually shows us that it's the the same areas of the brain light up when we're actually anticipating the the reward. So the brain doesn't really register the difference between waiting and receiving, and it feels like there's always a reward that's just around the corner. So as a result, people get really highly invested in this system and obviously tried harder and longer and more persistently, to earn those rewards. So, in terms of of, you know, the impact for for people with ADHD.

Because the increase in dopamine can make people feel really focused, which is obviously, you know, quite a quite a nice feeling if you're somebody that struggles in terms of keeping focus on things. So when you you know, anyone that's got ADHD can probably identify with that feeling of feeling quite hyper fixated hyper focused on something. It's actually quite enjoyable. I certainly really like it when I get stuck into something. So we imagine that there's something, you know, that that increases the dopamine and and and makes people feel really hooked in and and kind of live and online, that this is really appealing to somebody that that has ADHD. So.

In terms of, you know, some of the other risks, and I think Robbie and I have had conversations before about the online gambling and how that can really kind of, like, you know, up the ante in terms of the the the kind of pervasiveness of of the harmful gambling. And online gambling really increases the risk of harm because it's really easy to access. It's there whenever you want it. It's at your fingertips. There's no natural break. So that kind of betting shops, they they close eventually. But with online gambling, people can literally access all day, all night, and there isn't those kind of, like, natural breaks where the shop shuts.

So the this kind of nonstop access to gambling at all times that, you know, throughout the day and night makes it really hard for people to stop and particularly people who struggle with things like impulse control. Is that kind of cover I feel like I've talked an awful lot there.

No. It was wonderful. And I I think it's really good. Yeah. Interesting to talk to to Robbie about well, it was that part you talked about that the dopamine that you get when gambling gives you focus. And certainly, I reckon, particularly in my pre diagnosis days, that I was doing things because I got peace with some focus. Otherwise, my brain is racing all the time. And so I'd find these activities which would give me some peace. And actually, was wonderful. And obviously, now I understand that much more. What for you is the intersection of ADHD and your gambling, Robbie? I feel like it's I've been doing I do radio Yeah. I understand. Have this huge pause between when I speak, and that's terrifying for the interview.

Feel like on the other side. Robbie, over to you. Sorry.

Oh, sorry. You were freezing a bit there. Thought you asked me to speak. Yeah. I think around the impulse the impulse control is just it's just a moment to complete takes over. Nowadays, I I know for a fact if I want that one, would be me. That's parallel control. Maybe not instantly, but it would definitely get there. Focus wise, yeah, I could understand that machine or doing it online. It was a case of just completely focused on that. If people were talking to me, which probably wouldn't have really happened so much because it was a thing when it was just me. It's like it's like a lonely addiction. You don't really be around other people when you're doing that.

But, yeah, if I was completely focused on that, spinning ball, I focused on the gambling. And then after that, someone was talking with me. If if I just lost a month's wage or lost so and so, people would be would be talking to me, and I wouldn't really not that I wouldn't understand what to say, but I wouldn't register. I wouldn't focus on real life conversations or scenarios. It was just yeah. It's a difficult one, man. And I think towards the end, you had to start. Winning was great. You were getting a buzz from it. You were getting a dopamine. But to be honest, towards the end, it didn't really matter if I won it all. If anything, if I say, for example, I went in with a month's wage and nearly lost it all, and then.

Suddenly, he nearly got out of my back very quickly. I forgot about all the negativity that just happened about nearly losing it all. It was all about just being in that moment. And I think it was it was the end of, like, an escape where as long as there was still credit in the machine or or man or what or even with Scott's Quest, as long as we're still able to do it. It didn't really matter if we win or lost. It's like money was like ammunition to just keep going and going. And, yeah, I'm not gonna say I never won because it did, but the money was never good to me because that's what it was, ammunition to keep going even if it was taken out that night, the next day, or the week. You can probably tell where the money went as well.

Yeah. I paid my bills and stuff, but I'm I knew I like, my arms up there was made sure I paid forever. I don't know if we missed payments, but to me, the action, whatever was left over. Was just yeah. Think Does that answer your question?

No. It's we've had to we've asked people to submit questions via globaladhd.com or go to adhduk.co.uk and click through to the conference. There have been some issues with uptime on that. Someone asked, can you suggest a healthy way for an ADHD struggling with addiction to replace the dopamine hit from gambling? And actually, I think there's a sub question there, which is, is that what you need to aim to do? Do you need to replace the dopamine with something else? Is that for me?

Think mean, yeah, I mean, I think so. The the thing is, you know, when we are, you know, engaging in a in an activity which gives us a reward, you know, it feels really good. So what tends to happen is that we would invest heavily in that particular pathway. So we will repeat that behavior to get, you know, the pretty much guaranteed source of dopamine or pleasure that we that we crave. And I think over time, what happens, is that we become heavily reliant on that one particular pathway and actually forget, you know, that there may be other things that would also perhaps not give us the immediate reward, but actually would give us a reward. So over time, you know, those pathways weaken.

And the the pathway to the, you know, to the the perhaps unhealthy strategy becomes kind of more deeply ingrained. So, you know, everybody comes with recovery capital, everybody. You know, whether you're in recovery or not, actually, we've all got capital. So if we think about a person as as, you know, having unique and and special and different recovery capital, we need to consider what they are. And I've worked with people that have have, you know, been, you know, really, really in a bad way, you think they've got no recovery capital. Recovery capital are the things that we have about us that we can use to to improve our situation and get better and build upon.

And I've worked with people that have been homeless and, you know, really, really they, you know, appear to have very little, but everybody has capital. So it's about realizing what your is. So your capital will be your unique characteristics. It might even be your ADHD. You know, it will be where you live, you know, your the people around you. It might even be a pair. It will be your community. It'll be your culture, perhaps even your race or your religion. It can you know, every single thing about you, your work, your special interests.

You know, your your fitness levels, your health. So it's about thinking about what your capital is and and actually using that to better yourself. And I I personally think people with ADHD do have a bit of a disadvantage in some respects because of that dopamine need. But, actually, you know, there is that that propensity to get very hooked into something, and it's about using that to the advantage.

And and as part of this is that, like, I and I think I spoke about it in the previous interview, that point that the the research I've seen which showed that gambling propensity to gamble, same ADHD population, non ADHD population, But the probability of being in the problem gambler and severe problem gambler category for ADHD is much, much higher. Your level of danger essentially is much, much higher. Talk about recovery capital, think Robbie, like, what what was your recovery capital?

I was out. To be honest, at the start, when I first started the recovery, it was more of, like, just stopping. I started going to GA meetings, and I felt like for about six months, that was my main focus, not to gamble. But I knew that if I wanted to continue that way, I needed to get something. Swimming, that sort of thing. Just get at night and doing something that you used to for anyone struggling, I would recommend going out and doing something that you used to enjoy. Because whenever you're in the midst of will take over things, like things you used to do, like music and stuff. Listening to songs, means something to you, that sort of thing.

But, yeah, for everyone, I think it's individual. Just find something that I'm gonna take from you and take it back.

Oh, that's that's love. That's some it's very emotional advice. Like, it's deep like, we have we're out of time. And, like, in conference twenty twenty two, I thought it was charming and amusing to run slightly late as an ADHD conference. Because I was like, ADHD course are running late. No. Because then I hit some prerecords. And suddenly, for some of our major people, was dramatically late. And I couldn't do anything about it because I had prerecords. So I'm trying very hard to stick to time and catch up you know, where we have. So I have to call it a day there. You guys have been interest like, that's so emotional and interesting. And thank you so much for being so open and honest, and thank you for being here. It's a huge deal.

For us and very much appreciate it. Thank you.

I just realized Thank for having us. Share share a slide right at the end there just to can I just quickly just flash that up and maybe people can take a screenshot or something so that people can see that? Yes. Although it's not showing, but we'll give it a go. Okay? Yeah. I is it?

Yeah. No. It's just coming over as a as a black black rectangle.

Oh, okay. Okay. It's I'm sorry.

I'm, yeah, I'm very sorry about that. That's alright. No worries. I mean, yeah.

If you if you search the the national government health plan. Do you know what? I'm not gonna be able to even I know it off my heart, but there's no way I'm gonna attempt that right now either. So but, yeah, you know, like, so you get to GA reach out to support.

In the in the background, I'm trying very, very hard to show your slide. And it's possible, people. It's just about possible that I've succeeded. It is important. So you do it, Sarah, come on, because it's yours. Yeah. So so Gamcare.

So the the website, they there's loads of information there around self exclusion, all different sort of tools that can keep you safer, help create distance between your gambling thought and your gambling action. You know, you can get lots and lots of support. You can get, you know, gambling recovery support from from gun care. You've got the national gambling helpline, which is 808088020133. And then more information about the wider national gambling support network at the Big Gamblerware there. So so, yeah, hopefully, that was helpful and insightful for people. But don't be alone.

Thank you. And I've you should have seen some flashing up. So lots of lots of thank yous coming from people who are watching on the the different platforms. And for those watching, you can obviously watch directly on globaladhd.com. You can also watch on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter. And we are seeing your comments come in. And thank you for those who submitted questions, which we're tempted to ask. You guys have been great. Good luck on your continued journeys. And Robbie, congrats on what you've achieved. It's a big deal and extraordinarily hard to do. Sarah, your work is obviously amazing. Right, I've got to go. It's a lot. Two minutes late.

And the secret thing I know is that this current this next segment, it's supposed to be thirty minutes, and it's not. It's thirty two, I think. And so I will be catching up some minutes in a later segment. Wonderful. Thank you, guys. You guys are amazing. Thank you so much.