It's time to move over. We're going to move over in two seconds. So this is the exciting moment. So this is when so look, we've been global. Like, obviously, been having people watching from around the globe. 55 different countries represented in registrations. I think just shy of 3,000 registering and it's been extraordinary. We are truly global and it's ADHD New Zealand are the anchor of that globalness. So when Darren and I talked a long time ago about doing something together in a conference. I said let me bring up the team ADHD New Zealand. We've got in on this side, we've got Anna taking over and she's nervously looking at me going, is this the button to press? And I've tried to nod subtly twice and it didn't work. So I'm just.

Going full on telling her now. So the tech continues this side, right? So we have to have somewhere has to have the pipe into the Internet and it is us. And next time we'll have a plan on this that doesn't involve that. But for the moment, that's what the tech requires. And so we have two people here, Anna and Terry, are our night team. So they are looking after you guys. I am trying to get them to sleep to then pick up where you guys take off. Don't you want to talk quickly about the gestation? Is that like our conversation?

Henry, I'm in awe of how a conversation two months ago has has become something that's pretty amazing, the world's first global ADHD Conference that goes for twenty four hours. And I'm in awe of Christine and Anna and Liana from outside how this has come together and how technology can really create a community of learning, a community that can understand. And it's just been tested to come together, and I was talking to our colleagues before. It's the realization for this community that we're not alone is very powerful.

I agree and that we're not exactly right and that realization that it's across the world. We're all fighting this fight and you guys have been doing absolutely extraordinary work, inspiring work frankly. And one of the things I've loved that has come out of our close conversation is our learning from each other and and stealing each other's best ideas.

Know that Exactly.

So your political work has been it's it's something to be absolutely just. We it's incredible and wonderful. And I know that our ADHD and work welfare pack pack for talking to a line manager. Sent you the the word document and for you to New Zealand it and then improve it. And then we're looking forward to having it back and taking the best changes you've got put into it. Right, over to you. What have you got set up for us?

Thank you, Henry, and you can trust us for the next six hours. For those not in New Zealand, that was Amari or Toreo for I acknowledge you, I acknowledge all of you. My name is Darren and I am the chairperson of ADHD New Zealand. Welcome to the New Zealand segment of the Global ADHD Conference. It's been going for nearly ten hours and you're with us for another six hours. So thank you so much for coming. The first session that we get into today is about tertiary, and we know that study at tertiary institutions or vocational training if you're a student of ADHD can be hard, and we have no doubt that this is the same throughout the world. So what we want to talk about with these experts that I'll introduce soon.

Is some of the things we're doing to understand students of ADHD and some of the ways we can proactively help them. The first thing I want introduce you to is the Maori word or teraya word for ADHD versus which is aro sorry, which is aroreroteni. We love the word aroreroteni much better because it means attention goes to many things. I think you might agree that the phrase ADHD is a horrible, horrible phase and is twenty, thirty years out of date. So that's one thing we wanna change is the word ADHD for the world. Right, and before we start, we'll have a little disclaimer. The benefit of a panel discussion like this is we're allowed to be free, we're allowed to think, and this means that the views and the information or opinions.

Presented in this panel decision discussion are solely those of the individuals involved. They don't necessarily represent those of ADHD New Zealand and its employees and volunteers, and we are not responsible and do not verify the accuracy of the information discussed. The primary purpose of this panel is to educate, to inform, to let you know about how we're going in New Zealand. It doesn't constitute medical advice or other professional advice, and we welcome questions as we go along, and one thing that is particularly important is we don't get personal questions because we won't be able to answer them. So without further ado, let's get into the fun stuff, and I'm going to ask each of our fantastic speakers to introduce themselves.

Starting to my right, which is you, Irina.

So I am a learning adviser at Pukenga here in New Zealand, which is a vocational training institution.

Welcome, Irina, and let me introduce you to Doctor Natalie Matthews.

So my name is Natalie. I am a sociologist, and I teach at Mass University.

Welcome, Natalie. And Leanna, ADHD New Zealand. Welcome.

Thanks, Darren. Great to be here today. My name is Leanna Konhardi. I am a project lead at ADHD New Zealand.

Thank you. And on my right again, we have Sarah. Welcome.

Darren. Sarah Williams So my name is Sarah Williams. I am a principal adviser with the tertiary education commission, and I live in Wellington. It's great to be with you all today.

Thank you. And sister, thank you all again for coming. People out there in cyberland and YouTube land, what these people have in common is they've worked very closely with ADHD in New Zealand to create some real material and a real difference from those studying in tertiary and vocational training. So let's get into it. Of course we welcome your questions, so fire away and we'll feed them in as we go. So Sarah, I'm going to start off with you, and basically, what has been your involvement in helping learners with ADHD?

Well, thanks, Darren. Well, Darren, the Tertiary Education Commission, for those of us outside New Zealand and Australia, is the New Zealand government organisation that funds all education following secondary school in New Zealand. So everything that happens after secondary is funded generally by the Commission. So the Commission has a really, really strong goal as an organisation of ensuring that learners can really succeed within the tertiary system in New Zealand. And we've spent quite some time in the last years looking at the parity gaps in outcomes for traditionally underserved learner groups, of which neurodiverse learners is obviously a significant component. So what's been really important for us as we've focused on that.

Gap that we see for learners is supporting the tertiary education sector to understand more about diverse learner groups and how they can better enable them to thrive and succeed in tertiary education. So a couple of things we've been doing for that is we've been requiring the sector to focus more on the support to disabled and neurodiverse students. And we've been building these capability tools with people who are the experts. So, you know, the Commission doesn't know a lot about some of these things, so we partner with people like ADHD New Zealand to make sure that people out there in tertiary education organisations can get the support they need. It can be overwhelming as a support person or.

An academic and a tutor, and Erin and Natalie can talk to this. If you think, oh, I think I need to help this learner and I Google something and then I've got 10,000 references and I don't know what's good and I don't know what's important. And for New Zealand, specificity is really important for us as well. So that's really been our interest in understanding how we can, as a Commission, work with subject matter experts and learners with lived experience to enable the tertiary sector to really support and wrap around learners that need a bit of extra help.

Thanks, Sarah. And we've worked with the Tertiary Education Commission for almost a year now, and there's there's two key things I want people around the world to understand is that the Tertiary Education Commission is responsible for all tertiary. And this is fantastic because we don't have to deal with separate departments to look at learners or the Ministry of Disablement or anything like that. The second aspect is the tertiary education commission through Sarah have reached out to, I guess, the community to help build the tools that they need. And that's a really good model that we hope other organizations around the world will follow as well.

I have heard of government departments in New Zealand and around the world who try to do it in house, and I think the success model is how we work together. So thank you, Sarah. Natalie, I'm going to go to you now with the same question. What's been your involvement in helping learners with ADHD?

I guess most obviously as an educator, as a as a lecturer, as a tutor, but also as an advocate. So I got involved with this because I was myself diagnosed and that everyone with ADHD in the audience is gonna be like, uh-huh. That leads you down to a bit of an obsessive research, journey. And I thought, how can I use this to help students? And in doing that, I worked to try and help my colleagues then. So not only my own students, but building capability around my university and and beyond that. I, helped with workshops.

I've presented this in a number of of of places. And and as part of this, I've started joining I'm joined up with colleagues who are also really passionate about this. So we have a a neurodiversity community of practice at Mercy that is working towards projects such as as building inclusive environments, communicating with people, research. So it's just it's just growing and growing, which is amazing. And a resource like this that I can just as Sarah says, right, there's there's so many pressures and there's so much information. If I can just give something like this to people really easily and it's wonderful and accessible, it's been so good.

Yeah. It has. And, actually, a bit of a shout out for Massey University. They're one of the, I guess, one of the leaders in New Zealand in trying to understand how to help neurodiversity. This is a journey the whole country is on, but it's good to be able to have a conversation with you and see some progress. Now, Leanna, just looking at you, working you worked a lot. You drove the project with ADHD New Zealand and TEC to develop these elearning modules. What are they exactly?

Thanks, Darren. Yes. We were really fortunate to engage with the tertiary education commission on the development of these, and the purpose behind them is really encouraging for both staff and learners at tertiary educations in New Zealand. So what we did is we engaged with a lot of industry participants. So and that's, how we actually met Natalie and and Edina here. Mhmm. And also a number of, other tertiary institutes and learners with ADHD to find out, and understand where some of the, where some of the gaps were and how we could, provide support for everyone. So what we've ended up developing is four quick modules. Each module takes about half an hour each, and they we portray a lot of strategies and tips that.

Staff at tertiary education institutions can, refer to to really understand what ADHD is and also, integrate, some strategies and tips into their lectures and tutorials. Now this isn't to say that they need to focus especially on learners with ADHD, but what we have heard from staff who have already started implementing some of these strategies and tips is that it actually benefits everyone, in their lectures and tutorials. So we have undertaken a bit of a soft launch, so it is available for everyone to have a look at, and we encourage people to to jump in, look for the information that they're looking for, and, of course, if they have feedback, please do send it to us.

Thanks, Leanna. And just to emphasize, that's our website adhd.org.nz. Now, Irina, I appreciate you. I'm not sure if you should be here given there's a fire alarm where you're at at the moment, But if you are able to be here, I'm interested in what's your involvement in helping learners with ADHD.

Well, just unmute, and you can tell me if you're just waiting because I can just turn off the camera and run and get back to you. Yeah. But I Yeah. I'll try my yeah. Whatever you recommend, Julie.

Yeah. I'm afraid you're right now. Yes. I I think you might need to be on mute because it is quite loud. But I do think you should probably go and run. Join via cell phone if you can, Arana. Yes. Hey. This is live. So these sort of things, of course, are going to happen. Proof that this is absolutely live. Yes. You can't plan this. But, Natalie, we do have our first question through. Thank you, James from Wellington in New Zealand. And that is, what do you mean? You spoke about an inclusive environment. What does that exactly mean?

Inclusive and welcoming. So I think a lot of I've I've been looking at the ADHD forums in New Zealand, and I think a lot of people with ADHD are thinking, oh, you know, what do I need to do to get myself up to working within university? And it should not be under unidirectional. Right? Like, this is people with ADHD with all kinds of all kinds of people, all kinds of backgrounds should feel welcome at university and feel like they are being supported in meeting their potential and participating and making the environment better through who they are. So, practically, that can look like being openly welcoming. Right? That can look like having statements in lectures as well as in your course guides that say, we welcome diversity.

You know, if you need these resources, here they are. Yep. It can look like staff being supported and being opened. It can look like well, it should look like if people feel like their needs are not being met, they feel absolutely comfortable in addressing that and and reaching out about that, and they should have a clear idea about who they can connect with.

Yeah. Nicely said. Sarah, you'd have a view on this, wouldn't you?

Oh, absolutely, Darren. And look, just to back up everything Natalie said, an inclusive tertiary learning environment is one where people can bring it's a popular term, but their whole selves. So it's heartbreaking when we hear from learners or their whanau or their family that they have felt they couldn't disclose that a learner had some support needs, even if those had been recognized and supported at school because they felt that they would be deliberately excluded from tertiary environments because of those. Mhmm. And that's that's absolutely not the case. And as more and more of our learners are coming through school.

With higher levels of support needs because schools in New Zealand are getting much better at supporting those learners who originally would have just sort of fallen out of the system. So they're they're presenting at tertiary education organisations. And an inclusive environment is one, as Natalie said, where they can present with their full selves, be confident that they can be seen and understood. And where their difference in diversity is acknowledged up front, as Natalie said, so that could be statements in course guides, lecturers saying things in lectures, tutors, posters on the wall about neurodiversity.

All of those things. So it's about not having to hide the fact that you have some support needs. And when you ask, not being met with the idea that you're a problem or that this is a hassle for an organization, but being met with absolutely yeah. No. No trouble. Let's let's do that now. So that's really the kind of change that we're looking for and to have that right across an organisation so it's not just, you know, one or two staff members responsible for that. So any staff member at an organisation who recognises a learner needs support or the learner approaches them goes, hey, really glad you've told me that. We've got some amazing things that will help you. Let's look into that.

That's right. And on a personal note, my son goes to a school which is very inclusive. He's just a year before tertiary. And because of that inclusivity and because there is acceptance, he is very successful, and that's why it's important. Natalie?

Oh, yeah. Just to add that there's some really interesting work being going on going on in this area internationally and particularly in the field of engineering. So there's this wonderful recent publication that talks about an ethos of inclusivity. And this includes the stuff we've talked about. This also includes staff making an effort to understand and making use of use of resources like this one, and then reflecting on how this actually shapes their teaching environment, shapes what they're doing. And so that becomes pervasive. Right? That's not a poster that you put up and then you forget about it. That's meaningful.

And people can sense that. You know, if they are if people are making if you see them as people rather than problems, you you know when that's happening.

People, not problems. That's lovely. Now, Irina, it feels like you're now safe. The fire's over, and you're back where you started. You're okay?

You know, the sad thing is that no one even came to find me. But, no, the the the fire drill's over, it's very quiet, and I am completely calm and relaxed.

And and at the same time, you gave us a highlight of how lovely Hawkes Bay weather is. Hawkes Bay is on the East Coast Of New Zealand.

It's stunning. Beautiful. I'm telling you, beautiful.

Irina, I might bring you into this conversation about the importance of building an inclusive environment, and we've talked before that's quite important to you, isn't it?

Absolutely. I just find that if the learners don't feel that they're being catered for in any way, then they just disengage. Yeah, and I think in the running around I think somebody said about catering to all learners that if you cater for everybody well this is what I do, as if they have ADHD then everybody's ultimately better off, and particularly from our New Zealand context having a culturally safe space where where all learners feel that they can relate to they can get something out of what what you're presenting and take meaning from it in a way that works for them.

Yeah, look that's well said. And we know it's important, know, there's research that was done at UCLA looking at learners beginning a four year degree, and what they found is that learners with ADHD were half a grade to a full grade below their peers, and that this deficit was present throughout the four years. And sometimes it's really hard to catch up as well. We also as part of the work we created, we ran several focus groups of students. And as you before I go on, let's have a listen to what one of them said.

Hugh. That's the audacity that they feel that they have to minimize my achievement or belittle how much effort I've been able to put into being able to wait this far without knowing anything about me, without knowing the challenges, and being unwilling to have conversations like that. That's what I really despise in education.

That's what I really despise in education. How heartbreaking is that? And our focus groups are really interesting with university and vocational students because they were just heartbreaking stories of struggling to be accepted. Really, yeah, it wasn't good. Now, actually, is is those sort of comments, do they resonate with you, Natalie and Irina, in terms of feedback that you've got from your students as well?

I'm so glad you picked that up because, yeah, when I was going through these modules, that just jumped out at me. And every time I listen to it, it strikes me. And the thing that always gets me with this particular quote is that word audacity. It's not necessarily even a question of ignorance. It's also the false assumptions. Right? That we we have these narratives. We have these ways of understanding people's behavior. And for a lot of people, in particular, with people, like, with ADHD, those just don't necessarily fit. Right? Like, if a student doesn't create the work you expect.

It is very tempting to speculate on why or perhaps the effort they put in. And you you just don't know what if it the students have either put in or what the effort looks like. That's right. If student doesn't seem to be focusing, it is that may be how they focus. Right? So it's it's not just what I saw in that is it's not just, like, people don't understand, but people think they understand, and that is harmful.

Yeah. And, you know, the key point is there's no difference in intelligence. And what came through in the focus groups was that there were so students with ADHD were frustrated with the assumption that they're not up to it because they may not have the intelligence or that they have to they they're not working hard enough. They're just lazy. And we had research that to get a b. This is from overseas research. A student with ADHD has to work 10 times as hard as the, I guess, average students as well. So let let's move our conversation to a sort of a more positive light. You know, what are some of the perceived benefits of helping staff at tertiary or vocational training organizations to support learners of ADHD or even neurodiverse.

Learners? What are some of, you know, what are some of those benefits? And, Sarah, I might start with you since that's an area that TEC is sort of really looking at.

Oh, Darren. Absolutely. So as I said earlier, the commission's really, really focusing heavily on on enabling learner success within the system and putting all of our efforts in that space. So that means that we have to look really carefully at whether staff and tertiary education organisations are getting the kind of support they need. Because staff are really busy. So support staff, tutors, academics, people who are training trades, apprentices, the whole lot. They all have full time jobs as teachers in their roles. But then we're also needing them to be able to provide this kind of guidance and support, at least at some level on top. So.

The importance of being able to partner with organisations such as yourselves and people in the neurodiverse community is about being able to create tools that are reliable, contextualized to New Zealand, and that people in tertiary organizations can go to and and get that confidence. And as Natalie and have noted, when you become competent as a tertiary education staff member in supporting and understanding a learner with ADHD, you learn a lot about all neurodiverse learners. I mean, they're not all the same. Not one person with ADHD is not the same as another person. But you develop that guess, guess, Irena, you've kind of said it's a lens, so you can see the learner. You have the empathy that Natalie's mentioned.

The learner begins to be feel seen, feel heard, feel safe, and that's really what it's about. And we've we've seen through your work and other people's work, the heartbreaking thing is that it doesn't matter particularly how good an organisation's policies are and what they've got on paper. They can have all the great policies. But if they have staff who are not compassionate and understanding and welcoming.

Learners have a bad time, and they can be literally knocked out of a tertiary education journey by one staff member who hasn't been properly supported to become capable and confident dealing with this kind of need from a learner. So that's why it's really important to us. I mean, we just don't wanna hear about a single other learner who, because of a staff member's comments or attitude, has abandoned a tertiary education learning journey.

Yeah. Ex exactly. Well said. I'll throw it to you now, Natalie.

Any thoughts? Yeah. And interesting that stuff, I mean, is that policy is is not only knowledge and and desire, but also resourcing. Right? And things like, do you have enough support? You know? Do you have, can you conceivably do this within your the hours allotted you during the week and then the extra that you always, always do? So I I think I wouldn't be a sociologist if I wouldn't point out the broader context that can make it easier or harder for people. In terms of benefits, though, like, it was really interesting when you talked about those that 10 times harder because that is utterly contextual as well. Right? Like, that is not that is not inevitable. And the idea that I I don't want people to see.

Doing what needs to be done to assist people with ADHD as as a burden because this is really opening up people's capacities. Right? And this goes this goes with the idea that it's not intelligence. You get students who could be amazing at what they are there to learn how to do. And so it's really important then to think about the potential obstacles that do not need to be there. This is not lowering standards. This is not getting rid of anything that is important to a discipline. But when there are obstacles that just aren't part of what you're there to teach, things about how things are presented, what students are required to do when they really don't need to be, attitudinal obstacles.

You know, you you are unleashing people's attention. You're not gonna be pushing them along all the way around. You want to open up people to thrive. And from a neurodiversity perspective, diversity is good. Right? It's not just the dust thing to do to help people. When you have a range of minds in a classroom, in a discipline, in an institution, everybody is benefiting because you have so many different perspectives and strengths, and they all talk to each other and that the whole is so much greater than what it could have been otherwise.

The whole is so much greater. Now Irina, I see you nodding there. There must be perceived benefits that you can think of as well.

Absolutely. So for bringing it back to the individual learners, it's things like increased confidence, more autonomy over their own learning, higher self efficacy, higher motivation, lower anxiety, and of course, they translate into things like higher pass rates. Yeah. You know, it's all tangible things, but for the individual, the change in them that then enables them to achieve what they would like to achieve, it's incredibly powerful and it really makes a difference.

Yeah. Let's not forget that supported learners are happier and they will achieve more, which is good for everyone. Hey. I've got a really interesting question, which I'm gonna ask you, Sarah, from our q and a page. So out there in YouTube, comp you know send it through, send these questions through. We've got these experts. But the question for you, Sarah, is what support or mandates could staff working in tertiary or vocational training ask for to support their neurodiverse students? And then I'm going to ask you another question about neurodiverse staff as well.

Well, I can really only speak to a New Zealand context, but I would hope that this is happening globally. So for the New Zealand context, absolutely, staff who are working in a tertiary education organisation should be talking to the organisations about the kind of learners that they're experiencing in their class, maybe the challenges that they can see those learners are having, and asking the organization for support with time to engage with things such as the ADHD New Zealand learning modules and the the other learning modules and elearning and resources that we are currently providing at the moment and that are available out there through some of the other networks. And the other thing, I think, is to talk to organisations.

About things like establishing a community practice. So Otago Polytech, which is part of our network now. They have a wonderful neurodiversity community of practice that a lot of staff and learners at their organisation are part of. That's a really exciting environment for people to be able to talk about what works for them and how they can network and talk together about getting support. So there's there's a a heap of things. I'd also encourage people in the New Zealand environment to talk to their organisations about the disability action plan that the organisation will have and whether they can be involved in.

Being part of the voices that are creating those and those partnerships with learners and staff that are an important part of that.

Thanks, Sarah. And, Natalie, it's a follow-up question for you because I first met you, kind of, at a community of practice, didn't I? And they're very useful.

Yeah. Absolutely. I think the important thing for students and staff is to talk to other people. Right? Like, the more you do that, the more you are you're not reinventing the wheel. The more you're seeing what other people are doing, and you're you're offing each other. You're you're supporting each other and and going further and further and further. Yeah. So, yeah, our our community practice is is doing some really interesting things. I I definitely am not saying this is I was saying this as a participant. There are people other people are doing amazing stuff. So my colleagues, Catherine McWigran.

And Sharon Crooks, are doing some research with neurodivergent students at the moment, all kinds, lots of ADHD people on there. We're working towards a project called diverse minds at Massey, which is about fostering connections with students and creating that welcoming environment between students and and facilitating the students to lead things. There there's just so much potential. And once you get a sense of not doing things alone, whether you're a staff member or whether you are a student, you know, it's time to think about the next steps.

That's right. And and and moving forward. And, Liana, I'm gonna throw your way because thinking of what you're just saying, Natalie and Sarah, you know, focus groups is one that steps on my mind. And so we had nine university students. These were senior students that finished their bachelor degrees, and they're on postgrad or, in one case, studying to be a surgeon. And we heard their stories of what they struggled with through their journey of ADHD, and it was fascinating how they had all failed at their first attempt at university and yet had gone back. But at the end of the focus group, this highly accomplished student, because she's the one who's just finishing her surgeon qualifications.

She was like, this is fantastic. I didn't know anybody else felt like me. And these are the sorts of feedback we got, Leanna, from our focus groups, and they were fascinating, weren't they?

That's right, Darren. It was really interesting to hear that and really sad as well to some extent that, you know, these people are not just having these struggles, but they're going through these struggles alone. And, you know, that sort of really opened our eyes that, you know, in in such a to to participate in a tertiary organization, You know, they shouldn't have to be alone in their struggles. And I guess that's one of the reasons why we, you know, set up these elearning modules is simply to to engage with staff and really help them understand exactly what ADHD is, and so to help them also provide some support for these people. And, you know, we have, now this might sound a little bit silly, but we do have a certificate that.

People who complete all four modules can download. And what we're actually encouraging is that they put that certificate up in their office in a in a highly visible space so that anyone who comes to their office who may have ADHD knows that it's a safe space for them to talk and talk openly about some of the they've had.

Mhmm. Natalie.

That's very add about students feeling alone. I mean, the the estimates about the prevalence of ADHD in history education vary wildly. Right? The the one of the most common is anywhere from two to eight percent, and that will depend on the institution. Perhaps Sarah has some more up to date stuff about New Zealand. But, I mean, when you think about that, so if Massie's got three 30,000 students in various forms Wow. That's from minimum eight hundred to two two and something thousand students with ADHD. Mhmm. Right? And so if you're talking about a mandate, that's a bit of a pressure on these universities because that's a lot of students. But for students, like, you.

There are there are other people, you know, and it's worth being visible to you and also to make yourself visible to the university so they can start to recognize this. And particularly, disability services, you know, that you don't need to have a diagnosis to get in touch with them, and you don't need to even expect to need them, that they provide so much more than accommodations that depending on the university. They might get you in touch with other people. They might do do other things. But the more that people are universities are aware that people with ADHD are here and contributing and sometimes brilliant, more there is that push for for making use of these resources and then those next steps.

Yeah. And actually, Natalie, I'll stay with you, and then after that, I'll go to Irina. So I've got a question aside from the obvious. How do you know a student might have ADHD? And I think what the person asking the the question question actually actually meant by the obvious, besides the fact they've come up and identified themselves, you know, what are some of the characteristics you might see?

Like, realistically, you're never as an educator, you're never going to know all of the students in your classroom that have ADHD. It can it can look like so many things. And I mentioned disability services, but so, like, research all kinds of research consistently shows that students with ADHD don't necessarily even make use of those. They definitely might not tell you. It's I think it's important to create an environment where that might happen, but you're not gonna know. So this is why I think the site this principle that we keep on pushing about flexibility, right, about empathy with with students regardless of what they tell you they have or they don't.

About realizing that your students think in different ways and providing options. So it's universal design for learning that that that Sarah has has talked about in other occasions. So that that's why that is so important because it's really it's really important not to think about this from the perspective of the individuals that you know or suspect. But in terms of individuals, oh, it's gonna look like so many things. And you talked about the poor naming of ADHD. Right? Like, we there's not necessarily a deficit of attention. It's about controlling attention. So if a student is into what you are doing, hopefully, they will be, they are all in. You know, you can have some the best participants in a classroom who have ADHD.

You can have students that work so hard and use all the tricks, and you just never you just never know the effort that they're pouring into what they're doing. They may just look like anxious students. They may just look like high achieving students. They may look like students that don't submit things. They can they can look like so, so, so many things. Mhmm. And, of course, the old cliche, they're not necessarily gonna be physically hyperactive.

That's right. This is really important. There's different types of ADHD. They're not going to be the hyperactive one as always. And Irina, a similar question from your perspective in vocational training.

I would also echo what Natalie was saying, because I was diagnosed only five years ago, in my late 40s. So I would have looked like someone who had ADHD to many people because I was a successful student and a hard working student and a compliant person, you know, child especially. So know many of our learners are like this. They've learned to mask, you know, they've pushed down some of the feelings, and it isn't necessarily what you think. It can be things like missing deadlines, classes, or them reporting, you know, I'm hopeless at prioritizing or I'm always late. You know, it could be things like that.

Which which can be some of the obvious ones, but it it isn't necessarily. It could be that person who just feels like they never they're trying so hard or they're never quite achieving what they think they're capable of. And so with with being in a smaller organization, we're quite lucky. In my role, I'm quite lucky because I have more one on one involvement with students, and so I listen to those things, the mental load, the frustration with themselves and things like that, as well as some of the more traditional things.

Thanks, Irina. And would it be fair to say one of the worst things you could do when a student who might have ADHD comes to you and says, I'm I'm gonna miss a deadline. I'm coping of organizing, is to suggest something like, well, here's Outlook. You know, here's Excel sheet. Plan your day.

Yeah. Well well, firstly, they've probably tried all the all the traditional things. They've probably tried the planners and the to do list and everything like that, as I did myself in this effort to try and manage my life. So yeah, the handy tips, speaking from my own perspective, sometimes, no I won't talk about violence here, but you know it's unhelpful and it adds so much guilt and so much of a burden that, yeah, really unhelpful. And so that flipping that some of us alluded to of turning it around and listening, Let hearing what what is going on for people and responding to that Yeah. You know, rather than, oh, I've noticed that this business. So they actually haven't thought of this technique. They probably have.

Listening, key phrase. Natalie?

Oh, so much that. ADHD is a diagnosis because it's unusual. Right? Like, it's it's an extreme of something. It isn't it isn't. It is an extreme of something that everybody has some characteristics on. So this is why it's useful to think in terms of ADHD because a lot of your students who don't have ADHD will still benefit. But once you get a great enough quantitative difference, that can be qualitative. Right? Like, it's ADHD students are likely to have experienced things very different from what you, as an educator, if you don't have ADHD, would expect. And even if you do have ADHD, they can still look completely different to you.

So I I had a Zoom conversation with a student a little while ago, and I started she had said that she had ADHD and and actually autism as well. And I started by saying, look. I I have ADHD. It's okay. So it's okay to say if something is gonna be a problem to you that you wouldn't that you think is unusual. I I phrased it better in the day. But the idea is not that I have ADHD, so I'm gonna know exactly how you feel, but that I recognize that some of the things you were struggling with, other people will not expect you to struggle with. And so it that that because that's part of the shame. Right? Why don't you just? It university is hard for everybody. If it's hard in unusual ways, and that can be really.

That can feel really confusing if you don't know you have ADHD. That's And that that can cause a lot of shame when people don't understand what your specific circumstances are. So, yeah, don't assume you know. And Yeah. Whether you have you whether you're neurodivergent yourself or not. I was gonna say something about procrastinate. But, basically, if I think a student may if I'm getting ADHD vibes off them, I'll often say something like, oh, I struggle with procrastination.

And perhaps that is a thing that they will bring up. It does not matter if they have ADHD or not. Right? Like, it really doesn't here's a potential tool that might not work for them. That might. Here's something to try, and it really doesn't matter if they have ADHD or not because that might help them. So I actually often recommend that people have a look at help for people with ADHD, whether or not they have ADHD, if they think they might. Just because the stuff, it could be useful to them.

That's right. Nicely said. And actually, we've got another question, so keep your questions coming. We're drifting down to sort of ten minutes left, so, you know, be quick. So, Sarah, I'm gonna throw this one to you with, you know, so much awareness of ADHD, particularly among students. Do you think there's growing acceptance in New Zealand of ADHD in our tertiary vocational sector and your organization?

Oh, look. Absolutely, Darren. And to pick up on Natalie's comment about statistics, Natalie, we don't have particularly good disaggregated data on the presentations or the diagnoses that students who are being supported in the tertiary sector have. However, we suspect that particularly in the vocational and private training establishments, it's probably around a population percentage and quite possibly across into the universities as well now. For a number of reasons, you've mentioned that some learners just mask and just white knuckle it through. Others have got much better support at school, and so they've got the supports they need to be able to transition. And people who are neurodiverse.

Have traditionally quite often ended up in the vocational and apprentice training space in New Zealand because they felt like they they're too stupid for school to use, you know, really, really upsetting language that the learners reflect back to us because that's what they've been told, you know, back in back in the day in the school at Samoa where no one in my family ever went to university. All too too dumb. Well, no. Actually, you've all got undiagnosed dyslexia, for example. So Yeah. There's a whole lot of things that have been happening. So, absolutely.

There is a growing amount of learners coming through. And when the tertiary education organizations report to us on learners, they are definitely saying there is a year on year increase in learners with ADHD who self identify and say and come to learning support or disability or student support services and say, I have ADHD and I need support. Absolutely. And that's combined with what seems to be a really radical increase in the last couple of years of Yeah. Nationwide conversation about ADHD, and we're seeing that flowing through in the media and documentaries and podcasts and and all sorts of things. Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And I think the more a country becomes interested in ADHD, it just flows through. So in New Zealand, there are documentaries. There are podcasts. The media talks about some of the issues, and that's why there's a greater awareness and people are feeling safe. So this is a question I'm going to fire to all of you, and and thank you for the question that came through. And what I'm gonna do is ask you to limit it to say two or three ideas because we could go and talk a lot, which means the person who asked first, which will be you, Arena, has the best chance because you get to go first, and the others will have to think of something different. See how I subtly gave you a tip-off everyone there.

What advice would you give to tertiary educators in regards to what ways and tools you can best accommodate students with ADHD in the classroom?

Are you talking about a practical some practical tips? Yeah. Practical tips. Yeah. I would say try and encourage metacognition in the learners. Yeah. Help them to reflect a lot on their own learning and what's working well for them and what isn't and digging deeper into the reasons why because then they can think about what they could do, what they could do. So that's that's a big one. I would say, also, for me anyway, with the learners, I I work with a lot of culturally diverse learners, particularly our learning learners, so having models that are culturally relevant so that when you're talking about ideas or concepts that might be more accessible that the learners can see themselves.

In that space somewhere rather than, look. Here you go. I can help you do this. It's, oh, yes. This is I can relate to this. It's it's like a thousand more, but those those are two. Yeah. That's mine immediately.

Yeah. Good. Good to see you. How about you, Natalie?

Be brief. I think the main thing the first thought was get rid of executive function challenges. So this the parts of your course that aren't about the content, right, that aren't about that aren't disciplinary things, but as as as challenges that affect students with ADHD and other neurodivergent students. So there's an autism module very similar to this, and as I was reading through that, you know, it's a it's a, an issue for autistic students also. It's having to negotiate scary seeming systems and find things and deal with the the finickiness of things. And especially if they change from course to course, it's so exhausting. And so an analogy I've used before is, like, having your gym at the top of 10 flights of stairs.

You know, that might mean that once you get there, you're not giving your best. It might also mean that on a really bad day, you're not gonna go. So things like making the places for things really, really obvious. So our university has actually standardized our stream system, our our place where people our I don't know what you call them, that where people where all of the content is so that it's gonna be the same between courses. Yes. But give links to people. Right? Like, if you are Yes. Posting an email to people about an upcoming assignment, add a link to the resources you've already given right there so they don't need to find them.

I know somebody who got feedback from an essay that says you need to learn how to reference. Right? In the same time that you could write that, you could copy and paste a prewritten thing you've created that a sounds a lot friendlier, but b links this to the universe's resources to to one on one support if they need it. And just having those links right there so people don't need to think, ah, what do I do now? Where can I find things?

Yeah. Huge.

Think that can be very these.

Things are huge, but simple, aren't they? So simple. So.

Sarah's point about same thing. It's it doesn't take that much time. Right? And then you're benefiting all of the students.

Yep. Exactly. Hey, Arena. I have a feeling you might have one more idea.

I did actually. Thanks, Darren. So one thing as I've been doing my own study recently, I've been thinking about what has worked better for me and what hasn't worked. And so for me, any system that a learner would that you could suggest that a learner could try in a nice way from a selection of their choosing. Yep. The importance of the learner finding that system engaging. So not just the process or the system, but an engaging, highly interesting interesting system that's easy to maintain. Yes. That level sometimes. Mhmm. Thanks. Perfect.

Thank you. Hey, Sarah. I have the same question for you because you would have seen a lot. What are a couple of tips that you'd recommend?

Look, Darren, I'm not a face to face educator. So the main thing I've picked up from working with all of you and other people in both the disability and neurodiversity community is ask your learner what they need. And I really cannot emphasize that much. And both Natalie and Erin have made the point that, you of you know one person with ADHD, you know one person with ADHD. Ask your learner. What's worked for them in the past and get them to reflect on that. And the other thing would be just to pick up on other comments. Understand what universal design for learning is.

Yeah. The commission has got some online elearning about that coming up soon. There's also quite a lot of really good content out of Australia, so understand what universal design for learning is. Yep.

Thank you. Thank you for that. And I'm not a face to face educator either, but I've been fortunate enough to recently study in The US just on a, like, a simple course. And what I loved is at the start of the course notes, there was recognition of neurodiverse learning, and there was a neurodiverse inclusive statement, and it invited people to let the university know if they haven't and just go have a quiet word with the tutor or lecturer and also link to other places. And I found that quite powerful at the start of a course, the most scariest moment. I found that a really wonderful thing. Hey. We're rapidly out of running out of time, so I'm gonna put you all on the spot again.

And ask for that one key message you'd like to give our audience wherever they are in the world. It could be a tip. It could be a message. It could be anything. So who wants to go first? Actually, Sarah, I'm gonna pass it back to you.

Thanks, Darren. Look. I'm going to repeat what I just said essentially, which is please talk to your learners. As you go about as a tertiary organisation, as a as a teacher, as anyone else working in this space, as you go about trying to support people who are neurodiverse, please speak to people who are neurodiverse about how they would like to be supported and what that would look like for them to be in a safe, inclusive learning environment. You can't do it without them. Don't make it up.

Don't make it up. Beautiful. Natalie?

I was gonna say serious, so I will I get to say something different. And coming back to being welcoming, it's funny when people talk about challenges for neurodivergent students, and they think what is in this person's brain that is going to make them need something different? And a common challenge for students with ADHD is they don't feel like they belong at university. That is not a unit that is not a brain thing. That has nothing to do with the there's there's nothing directly from the ADHD brain that has caused it. It is so unnecessary. And so being aware of that potential barrier and and making a point. Hey. If you think a student does have ADHD, have them smile. Make we watch your tone. Yep.

Make sure your feedback is is, well, is useful. You know, good old CRC. Yep. Have that everywhere, and just be aware that this emotional element of university is there and matters so much as well as the cognitive stuff as well as the organizational stuff.

Nice. Nice. Thank you. Irina.

See how it's so clever at tying about five ideas into one?

Yeah. I've noticed that. I know. Because we have ADHD, right? I.

Would say, yeah, drawing on what everyone has said, it's relationship for them. Relationship first, and in the Maori concept of whanau, the family, that creates a safe space, which leads to that self understanding of the person with ADHD, a person with that, who's empowered. And also if you're not culturally relevant, they don't feel safe. It's not relationship driven. You're lost before you start.

Yep. Nice. Thank you. And, Leanna, tell me, what's your one lasting message or tip?

Thanks, Darren. Yeah. I am gonna do a plug for the elearning modules that we have just developed from the feedback we've got to date, they are super handy. People really appreciated understanding what ADHD actually is, and found, a number of the strategies and tips really easy to implement.

Oh, shit.

Yes. And relatively quick to complete. So please do that at d h d dot org dot n z.

And they're interesting. It's almost like they're made by people familiar with ADHD.

Go figure. Hey, hey, and and my tip is believe. If you're a student, believe, and if you're a tertiary and vocational trader provider, also believe. You'll be amazing what a bit of belief can actually do. Before we wrap up, I'm going to pass over to Sarah to sort of finish on a proverb which we really find interesting. Over to you, Sarah.

Darren. So in New Zealand, we have have whakatauki from from Maori New Zealand, and this is one that we feel is really appropriate for the space which is Naoturoru, nakoturorua, ora ai te iwi, and it literally sort of translates to with your food basket and my food basket the people will thrive, But what it speaks to is community collaboration in a strengths based approach, where everybody who's involved in something has something to offer in a piece of the puzzle, and if we all work together, then everyone will thrive.

You think those words are lovely. Hey, thank you everyone. Thank you, Sarah, Arena, Natalie, and Leanna. Do a plug again, adhd.org.nz for the material. It is fantastic. Coming up, our next session, we're gonna talk about sport and ADHD, in particular on basketball. And in the meantime, thank you for coming, and we're about to go show a four minute clip. Have a good day, See you later.