This I talk about ADHD central. I think this is it.

Heston, thank you so much for doing this. And I you you are an absolute inspiration to to many, but especially to those in the ADHD community. In particular, for those who get diagnosed later in life, we know of people who go to their GP and get refused assessments because they've managed to hold down a job or got a qualification. And when you got assessed, you had three Michelin stars. And and even more that you're you're pioneering restaurant, the fat duck had been voted best on the planet. Oh, and and an OBE. Oh, no. We're we're getting there. Don't worry. We're we're we're many will with with ADHD will talk about their love of diversions being a blessing in the interest it creates and a curse in the.

From what they meant to do. Your questioning attitude has led you to mix science and creativity that meant you seared fish with liquid nitrogen before sauteing it and invented triple cooked chips. You created.

Umbrella spring chocolate as well. Dwarfs sliding down the liquid nitrogen chocolate fountain and and sending potatoes to space pairing.

I I know. But you you created the science concept of food pairing, the the the science and the different flavors that go together that led you serving white chocolates and caviar as well as bacon and egg ice cream. You've got honorary degrees from Reading, Bristol, and London. You're a fellow of the Royal Society of Chemistry, the first chef ever. You're an OBE awarded by our dear late queen in 2006. In 2016, you're granted a personal coat of arms and chose the wonderful motto of question everything. I think people know you're amazing, but many don't know your your journey, that you left school with one a level, but a love of cooking.

That you persuaded Raymond Blongh at Le Manoir Cate Cezanne to give you a trial based on nothing but your enthusiasm. And after a week, you were offered an apprenticeship, the doorway to fine dining open to you, and you walked away. Spending ten years working a range of non chef day jobs, building your cooking skills and knowledge at night, learning at home on your own, a personal apprenticeship of skills and experimentation, running to share with your wife your near perfect three creme brulee recipes, the three final ones you worked up to, waking her up and then realizing it was 2AM, selling your home to buy the rundown pub in Bray that became the fat duck to have posh locals come up to you and say, we've had three owners in five years.

We've closed them down, and we'll close you down too. Putting such evident hours in that the exhaustion had you trying to light a brulee torch under the hot tub and crashed asleep on dirty restaurant linen, you are the absolute evidence that you can have ADHD and achieve extraordinary things, and that is inspirational. And not only that, you did it without knowing you had ADHD, getting a diagnosis later.

So Self diagnosis.

So okay. And and then I think you've had a a a formal one later with the.

And what I mean is I I was questioning myself when you said question everything. Question mark. Question everything and everything. So there's questioning the whole universe and everything in the universe.

I have a sweaty head. Well, I had a very sweaty head. Oh, before we're, like, we're about to go over I'm about to ask you this question. So I'm I feel like I'm a terrible interviewer. You're definitely supposed to, like, wait for the other person to speak. Maybe this is.

Leitmotif for ADHD interview structures.

Honestly, and also, like, your interviewer shouldn't have a preference for butting in. That's definitely not, like, a characteristic that you're supposed to have. Anyway, right, I'm gonna get to my first question if it kills me. So let's start with the first question. What the fuck? How the fucking fuck did you achieve that while having ADHD? You're extraordinary. Okay. Now let's ask that a bit more formally. And then, like, people really want to know your ADHD story. Can you tell us your ADHD story from when you first had an inkling that you had ADHD and now?

I was gonna ask you, is it okay to swear? But, actually, it's okay for ADHD. So fucking hell, I can say whatever the fucking cunting word I want to say. And as opposed to sending an email saying, I hope this email finds you well in these terribly horrible pandemic circumstances, and hope you're well. God. Best wishes. No. Swear words can be really wonderful. So that's my and my That's your your ADHD story. Yeah. My journey to ADHD actually came through food. And I'm gonna try and do noun attack noun attack, which helps just like it's like it's like joining dots. So back, back, back, to my childhood. And I've reversed back to almost birth because of my memory. Grub London, seventies, shit food in England and Britain.

Olive oil was only in pharmacy for block teas. You could buy supermarket, one type of pasta, spaghetti, blue packets, Cornwall holiday, and then 15 or so went to France with parents and sister and went and and went to three Michelin Star restaurant. Dad did well. He's he had a leasing business, but we lived in a basement flat, one windowed basement flat in a very expensive road, but it was the it was basically the caretaker's flat off High Park. And so this contrast of I never ate an oyster. I didn't know what a lobster was. Caviar didn't exist in my mind. Mission stars, it didn't exist. I didn't I knew nothing about any of this world. It was fish and chips for me. And and my mom was cooking, which is like.

My joint. Coronation chicken, and the avocado stone in the in glass jar that that never really did anything, but it was, you know, a sign of hope, I suppose. And and then we go to France. And so the Cornwall goes to France. And we drive down to the South and come on. And on the way, my dad read about this restaurant called the Ostendorfetamine. There's something very special about this place. I'm sitting at this restaurant outside. I was smaller, and I was looking up, and they were pouring sauces into souffles and carving legs of lamb at the table. And the nose of the crickets at the sunset, I remember those feet crunching on the gravel, the smell of the lavender, the running water, and the chink of the glasses.

And the soft sound of the work the language around me or the the tonality of voice. It's like I I just kind of looked up because I was small then. I looked up, but fell down a rabbit hole at the same time. And that fell down a rabbit hole. I thought it was it it it was kicking. And I fell down something and thought this went into my blood, under my skin, in my veins. And I didn't have no. We always have a choice. I didn't have the choice. It was something I discovered that every human being can do. The more we try different things as opposed to telling ourselves we've gotta go for a fucking walk in the woods or, oh, I got the best dentist or yoga teacher or got a evil to fucking spirulina and don't eat sugar and don't smoke.

Try. Try. Try. Try. Try. Try. And if something presses your button, triggers your fancy or whatever, if it happens, then, okay, I'll have another go. Another go. Another go. Another go. And you might end up to a point where you think, I'm really lucky this anymore. Then it's okay to change. In the hind's head, pop him in in over the fireplace, 300 years old. There's in Gold Leaf, there's a sentence which is so powerful. I will pass it thousands of times, but it took me a long time to actually digest it. Fear knocked on the door, faith answered, and no one was there. When a belief becomes stronger than a fear, we need fear. This fear is like being diagnosed with ADHD, has the potential to celebrate and grow or the potential to succumb.

Or surrender to it. We're the superstars that will be the last people to be replaced by computers.

Here's my ramble. That's a wonderful ramble, and that quote is seriously important. When did you first hear about ADHD?

He just said to me, I think you might have ADHD. And I said, I haven't told this I haven't told this to any publicly and to anyone. Some but he said that you might have ADHD. And I thought, how can I have ADHD? When I focused so much? Because with ADHD, you forget for, forget for, forget. How can I have ADHD when I focused so much on what I've done? And he said it's classic ADHD. If you find something that you love or connect with, you're hyper focused on it. Otherwise, you're just not interested. There are too many other things to do. So it's like a a trombone zoom. You zoom in and hyperfocus. If you find the trigger, the little fire, then you're off and running. If you try and fit in to do what everyone else does.

Then you kind of imprison yourself. So I then went through a doctor and said, I would like to see if I've got ADHD. I went to this recommended to this this doctor in Harley Street and multiple tests questionnaire. Ticked these boxes, and I think 20 is the tipping point. I was, like, something like six six between fifty eight and seventy, somewhere between there, which I think is one of the highest recorded. And subsequent, I thought, oh, about ADHD. Then I started to research about it. I had brain scans and various brain scans and the activity and business of my brain. So I looked into that, and I tested myself. I tested my brain. I tested my body from the medical perspective. And my diagnosis was magical for me.

Because it started to make sense of who I am as opposed to of who I'm not. And I then felt less judged by others and the ability to be able, and this wasn't overnight. Especially considered the potential that I'm actually a pretty fucking magical human being. Like, everyone has that potential. So that ADHD diagnosis. So you said to me, and this is really profound when you said this when we last saw you in in in London. The diagnosis is the potential for superhero or doom and gloom. The diagnosis. The response to the diagnosis. So I think that the diagnosis of ADHD category is really, really potentially magnificent.

What was it when you when you first got that diagnosis, that formal diagnosis of you've got ADHD? How did that make you feel?

I wasn't I wasn't sure. I mean, it took me a while to research. They gave me Adderall, and the doctor said to me, it's like he said, your serotonin levels are so high. They're so high. Imagine if you were you're in your house, the roof opens, and somebody throws all your favorite food for the week down, and you catch as much of it as you can, and the rest of it falls through the gutter or you've got this. You've got it, and you eat it all in a day or two days. Then for the next week, you got nothing. And that's what happens with with the the serotonin and the hormones, we're all wired differently. So my normality is the opposite from a lot of people's normality. It's not better or worse. So that's why they gave they gave Ritalin and.

Adderall and all these things where, the taking instead of procaine to to actually relax seems really weird. But the doctor said to me, your serotonin levels, when you don't when you when when you don't take anything, your serotonin levels are off the roof. Over the years, what I've discovered is it's taken a while. There's many other things I can do. I just do things that I love doing and celebrate the beauty of my imagination.

You've used exercise hugely. Massively used exercise.

I mean, four hours a day. I had the world sit on record. I I 100 a week running. I do 5,000 sit ups a day. I would it's just relentless. Relentless.

See, something you told me that that you did a big amount of exercise in the morning before lunch service and then another big bout in the afternoon.

Yeah. Sometimes three times a day. So I would I I would do maybe an hour to two hours in the morning. At lunchtime, I'd do another hour. And then in the evening, I'd do another hour.

But I was And then that's still working. So people with ADHD use exercise to help get calm their brain to focus on what they need to do. Do you feel like you were doing that?

Yes. On reflection, yes. And even now, you know, in my ripe old age.

So I wanted to ask this because it has kind of blown my mind. You talked about when at the start of the fat duck, you did all the finances. You would order everything. You you had you had, like.

Every week, but I did it not on computer paper. I had printed sheets. I had ordered all the invoices, the order sheets. I and there was a system. Let's say you do order a box of wine. So I in the office, which has a look, ply plywood sort of surface with a with a print on it, I would then write the thing, put the order in to the wine company on paper. They would go through a fax or something, I think it was, and then they would come back and confirm the order. So with that confirmation, when the delivery came, arrives at the door, I would then they would have a delivery note with the piece of paper that I ordered. I would match the piece of paper with the delivery note. I would check the bottles. They would sign it so that was done.

And then that would go and wait for the invoice. To me, that's really freaking clear. Now oh my god.

What I think is particularly interesting, though, like, is that you what you created was a visual system that was that that that had a a simplicity to it, though. And I I think a lot of ADHD people, right, like, if they can't see it, it doesn't exist, like having a very visual system that allows them to Really? If you if you're with somebody and then.

They their idea of tidying up is just to move all the objects to another place, holy shit. At least I can think where did I put that when someone else moves it. It's tidying up. What do you mean? Tidying up is fucking hiding. I'm gonna hide it. I'm gonna put it there. Oh, it's in the other room. It's like the scissors over there in the end of the fucking garden. And they yeah. They just wanna know, this is here. Just keep the fucking place, then I can be in flu. Oh, no. It's over there. It's in that cupboard. And and then they might say, where's the bloody bar? Oh, over there. Well, where is over there? Where's over there? It's just like it's in the top drawer on the left next to the so and so. I get that. It's over there.

What the hell? And I am printing up. Like, I love I think I slightly summarized that other people tidying things is them hiding things. Like, I love this. So something I wanted to ask, like ADHD and the intense of life. Like, a number of people talk about the hyper focus of ADHD Yeah. But but leading to burnout. How do you avoid burnout?

That's that that's a fucking interesting Christian, and nobody has asked me that. I don't know. And at the same time, embracing the fact that I don't know is another opportunity to learn Christian more about myself. I do know that of all the brains are broken and all the health checks I've had, the brain scans, I've had my liver, my lungs, my heart, my blood pressure, my cholesterol levels, my MRI tested tested. I've got pages of this. I so I've not shied away from looking at myself. And it seems to me that and you could say I have, I think I have, a relatively extreme level of physical pain threshold.

I want to share with you some of what Michael Phelps' like, his story. Yeah. So and this is from his mom. And completely honest, the incident, it slightly made me cry. It did make me cry when I first read it in my life.

No. I did it with Michael. Have you? Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So we've touched we've we've touched on this.

So teachers complained Michael couldn't stay quiet at quiet time. Michael couldn't sit at circle time. Michael didn't keep his hands to himself. Michael was giggling and laughing and nudging kids for attention. This kid again said to Michael, can't sit still, can't be quiet, can't focus. They're elementary. Your son will never be able to focus on anything. Age nine, diagnosed with ADHD. Age 10, Phelps' family are a swimming family. His older sister, Whitney, at 15, was ranked first in the country for 200 meter butterfly. And though her her career was cut short by back injury, and by 10, Michael was ranked nationally at his age group. And missus Felt watched the boy who couldn't sit still at school.

Sit for four hours at a meet waiting to swim his five minutes worth of races.

Yeah. Achieved, achieved, achieved, achieved, achieved, achieved, and it also drove him on. But at the same time, then people then have less where do I go now? I'm gonna I'm gonna find something else to criticize him about.

Something else. Is he the most successful Olympian of of the modern age? Yeah.

Same thing. I have a look at myself. I did not realize that I was trying to prove to the world that I was not mentally handicapped or whatever the branding is and the I'm concerned about Heston. I'm concerned about Heston. Really? So I try harder and harder. And what happened, I I didn't realize this, so I realize it now more, that I put fuel not only into codependency in the outside in, but I put fuel into my own drive. So there's this interesting payoff now now, and it's easy. It would be understandable for people to listen to me saying this and say, well, is it okay for you, Heston? You're a celebrity, best chef, best book, best world record, doctorate, doctorate, doctorate, OBE.

Coat of arms, bloody, bloody, blah. It's okay for you to say that. But in fact, these are just titles. It's like a CV. And how many people with ADHD, when they're diagnosed as ADHD with a problem, you could argue that maybe actually that adversity gives the opportunity to achieve. But, also, it gives the opportunity to want to commit suicide, to go into to over consume things that to the consummation of sugar or alcohol or drugs or or or cigarettes or shopping or whatever you wanna call it. There's this want and need theory, which makes sense to me. If you need something to keep, something at bay, then that something that you keep at bay is going to inflame and come out sideways. And we all do that. All of us do that sometimes.

If you do something because you actually want to do it, then that's different. And there's always a payoff between the two, and it's very complex. But if ADHD automatically considered from the moment you can listen that you are a problem to society and you don't fit into the world and you can't sit still. Like Ken Robinson's talk, there are people that have to move to think. And it's like looking away. There's times when I have a conversation, I look away. And then, oh, look at me. Look at me. What the fucking what do mean fucking look at you? I'm engaged so much. I want to look at a flat surface that doesn't move, that doesn't have a pattern. I can just listen to you without distraction.

But why do you think that by looking at you, I'm listening? Or why do you think that if I get up and walk around, I'm ignoring you because I'm not sitting and listening? People that have to move to think or benefit from moving to think at times.

Do you do you still feel that you have to like, that you you you said just now that you've driven by a need to prove yourself. Do you do you still feel the need that because that's still burning in you despite every extraordinary things you've achieved? No.

But I think there's something about a human, a living thing, which could be a plant, a basil leaf. It could be a clown. It could be a dog. It could be of of feeling connected. And some of that is wanting to give pleasure to others and vice versa, reflective. Wanting to feel part of a community. Wanting to feel connected. So that one knee thing, I realized how much I did it before, but also I benefited from it. I've never felt more fulfilled using a word in my life than now. That's wonderful.

It's where we all where we we all wanna be. On the Michael Phelps story, the author finished with the moral of the story, which offers hope for parents of any child with a challenge like ADHD. Too many adults looked at missus Phelps' boy and saw what he couldn't do. This week this week, the world will tune into the Olympics to see what he can do. What like, when you hear that, what's what's what would you say to to a parent who's just been told their kid has ADHD?

ADHD are letters and they're words. Language can be a beautiful thing in a song, in a fairy tale, in a story, in a metaphor. But when we grow up learning words, we then categorize our emotions by words, and we internally categorize them by words and language. And that finger pointing takes away from the loving potential of celebrating ourselves as unique, sacred, imaginative beings.

I have a sort of favorite a favorite question, which I always try and try and ask. What impact of your ADHD has made you saddest, and what has made what impact of your ADHD has made you happiest?

I'll slightly reword that question because I can.

Yeah. Now you can. I know. I didn't know you were going into politics.

I've had the I've had the moments. I know I'm I'm gonna say this to you and to people listening. I've I I only said it to Melanie a couple of nights ago. I had moments, and not too long ago, that it's like the Queen song, Bohemian Rhapsody. I don't wanna die, but sometimes I I I wish I never was never born at all. So I've had moments where I've looked out the window and I think, I know it's beautiful out there. But I'm, like, imprisoned in something. I have the compass. I've lost my compass. And if there was a gun if I had a gun, I might have used it just to finish. That's not the same as wanting a rope or not. It would be a simple thing to do. If it was there, I don't know.

But I remember lying on the sofa. I was lost. I was so lost. I look back at it now. Everywhere I looked, enough was never enough. Enough was never enough. Where do I go? What do I do? And when I look back at that, it's also a precious memory to say I'm not only am I still here, but my life has never been so precious as it is now. And having that feeling so so that's the sort of answer to your question. Rather than moments, it's how I felt with myself. And I got lost. I was lost. It wasn't I want to kill myself. I just thought I can't I can't go anywhere. I don't know what to do. I don't what to go. No compass. No direction because everywhere I turned, everything I did, still people thought, well, there must be something wrong with Heston.

And then I'm thinking, well, I've got all these awards, and my CV is ridiculous. I've achieved. Achieved. Achieved. It's never enough. But it was because I when I started to take responsibility for my feelings, so nobody makes anyone feel angry, happy, sad. They can do, But if we have that perspective, then we then blame and point fingers. Let's say religion has a potential for being positive all sorts of things. Positive, negative. We think that if we're a good citizen on this planet and we go to school and we get our degrees and we get the money and we have our pension and we have a family, we have a house, and we have bricks and mortar, we do this and we do that, and we eat spirulina.

We go for a walk in the woods, and we meditate with a good dentist and all that stuff. We're gonna be a good citizen because at the end of our life, we're then gonna go to some place called heaven. Now what about embracing the possibility that we're actually living in our own heaven, and we're just fucking it up without being aware.

I do usually sometimes think about how people live in their own heavens or hells in earth and and actually and actually how much mental health can define that for people. And It's the best. As well as as well as many other things, but, like, it's I I actually do I do reflect on it. Yeah. I'm sorry that you felt how you felt.

Yeah. But thank you for that. But now that's precious, that memory and being able to share it now. Never said that to anybody like that. And I'm I'm starting to cry. There we are. But my tears, they're not they're not sad. Getting that out now has been not an easy thing. I wasn't aware that I was harboring that as much as I was, realizing it, getting it out. I wouldn't have changed that for the world because I'm still here, and I'm just fucking beginning. And it's wonderful. There's a diversity, let's say, and I faced it. And I earned my reward. Thanks to me. I'm not only still standing, but, you know, I'm fighting fit. And every minute the amount of moments and blessing my day where I think, oh my god. How beautiful is life? How beautiful.

But maybe have you not gone through those moments? And then how much work did I do to follow my belief and be in this position where my life has never felt this precious and felt this potential and felt this fulfilled and whatever word you wanna call it. And so, you know, some I'm I'm in a I I'm in a position, I think, to be able to, you know, understand what it feels like to be in that position. And that also gives me another superhero strength. Well, I give myself another superhero strength. So it's really cool. I mean, it's not No. Doesn't. Pretty important.

That that's it is really cool. It's important. It's important, and I think your way you're at now is wonderful. Right? And I'm so I'm genuinely so pleased to hear it even even if I can't really say it. I think that was saddest. Like, that was saddest. Can you think of an impact of ADHD that's made you happy?

Oh, shitloads. Shitloads. Dot joining. Their creativity, imagination, and finding connections that other people, lots of people don't seem to find. And it could be an umbrella with with dog hair, some sweet corn, a cushion, and my left foot, for example. Oh, got an idea for that.

Poof. Poof. Poof. Poof. Poof. Poof. And these things are here.

Just join the dots. Instead of joining the dots in a linear way, you join them in a non linear way. So maybe the connection between music or sound and smell. And poof poof poof poof poof poof poof. And now it's gone ballistically berserk to the point where there's times where, okay, I've gotta just bring it back. Focus. Focus. Focus. Although I don't want to focus on a linear time meeting and whatever. But meanwhile, I'll see an object, have a thought, have a memory, see another object randomly, and then put them together and come up with a new a new concept. And that that is so precious. I would not change that for anything.

Talking of that that those sorts, you know, that challenge of bringing things together. We talked about time and keeping to I'm friendly from. And you you talked about your ADHD. Said, you know, I wouldn't change it for the world. It's made me made me realize things about my behavior. Take my lateness. I don't like being late. I don't sit there going. I don't need to go yet. What happens is I go, we have to leave or skip my phone or hang on. Then we send an email, start typing one, that's another. It's the d. Oh my god. I need my duffle go upstairs.

Then I come down, a whole lot of things I can't remember what I went out for. I found a watch from it I lost a year ago, and that's how it happens. Now you're also the person who can bring together a collection of ingredients all prepared and cooked individually and brought together perfectly timed and perfectly cooked to one singular moment of gastronomic perfection on a plate. To do that perfection again and again and again, but also be the person who gets lost looking for his duffle coat. How do you how do you explain being both of those people and how does it feel being both of those people?

I don't know. When I want to do it and I'm in flow, then down to the millisecond I can tell how much time. Then there's other moments where I try and do it, then I feel guilty. You know, I don't want I don't want to do it. So so so I can flip from one to the other, but it when it when I try and force into the other thing, then it becomes more frustrating.

When you talked about those time, those being those two different people, it looks like what it looks to me is it like, when you're cooking, you are in flow. You are in hyperfocus, and that is you're using your ADHD to be extraordinary and getting the duffle coat. Is that when you're not in flow, it's the other side of ADHD Yes. It's getting. Yes. And what I do is I put objects in places.

Where the object was like a to do list, so I'll move it to another place and and I'll I'll put it there put it there and and and Melanie will know. So she won't move it because I try to put it there for a reason. And if she thinks it might move, she'll ask me. She says, look, so I'll put this over here. Great. That makes absolute sense to me. And in the kitchen, when it float, it's like my limb is like an octopus. Things move out my body and drawers open and shut and and and but if something's out of place, it's like throwing a twig in a bicycle wheel, and then then the same incredible flow goes into total and utter chaos. Being able to laugh at oneself in toe curling ways, that laughter is absolutely magical.

And I've done enough things in my life that I think it would be a criminal offense not to take the piss out of me, to recall memories that I've forgotten about. But my toes go, oh, I cannot believe I thought they were so normal at the time. Laughter laughter is is possibly in terms of words and emotions and but triggers on on the vagus nerve and stuff. Genuine laughter, everything else stops. And being able to laugh at yourself instead of burying stuff, you laugh at it, take something that might be negative, and take the piss out of it. Laugh at it, then it becomes something complete that you then turn something into into something precious.

And that could be, you know, where people think, oh, I just this is just I you know, I I'm I've got to live with this. Isn't my life miserable? You can laugh at it, and you can share it with other people that also understand a bit as opposed to they're they're, oh, I'm so sad about that. And I'm so laugh at it and share those share those experiences. That I think is really, really, really precious and one of the most important things.

And we've had some of those moments today, but the one that I of laughter stopping everything was when you said tidying it up. It's other people hiding things. I nearly fell off my chair.

Yes. Perspective. They're tidying up. I know, but they're not. They're hiding things. And they're actually creating misery. They're creating a whole planet of frustration and chaos. And then after that, they go, why are you late? We really need to leave now. Well, we think I'm trying to find this.

I You'd be Yeah. You'd be wonderful to overstay and be the late for the the thing you've gotta go to. This has been incredible and important, and I really thank you.